Sawtooths breaking off!!!

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nc rabbit hunter

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I have several 3 yr sawtooths that have broken off in the ground!! They are at least 7 ft high and trunks like my wrist.The root is nothing more than a fat stub,like an arm thats been cut off.Any one had sawtooths do this before???? Shouldnt they have deeper roots??
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I've had voles destroy trees that were several years old. This was a tough winter, this may be your problem if the roots are all cut off.
 

curdog

Ten Pointer
Contributor
What is the ground like in your area? Is there a real high water table? Sawtooths are pretty fast growing and don't spend the time developing roots like many of our native oaks. If you have a high water table then they don't need to send the roots as deep to tap into the water. Did it look like the root had rotted, or just never developed? I've never heard of this and don't know a huge amount about sawtooths, hopefully someone has some first hand experience.
 

para4514

Eight Pointer
Contributor
Were the trees bare root, potted or dug and transplanted?
 
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Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
You definitely have something odd going on there. You might try and contact the NC Forest Service, and take the tree root by for them to see. Maybe they can shed some light on it.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Your extension agent would be a good place to start as well...if it's nematodes that are doing it, you've got issues that you will need help with if you want to raise trees.
 

curdog

Ten Pointer
Contributor
Its hard to tell from the pictures, but it kind of looks like the crown is thinning somewhat as well. It could be phytophthora root and crown rot. Was the tree "wet" under the bark?
 

nc rabbit hunter

Guest
It was green and in good shape. They just started toppling over since first of the year.Every bad front that came through would knock one down.I just happened to pull this one up to look at the root.These trees look really good.I had high hopes!!!! Im going to contact another guy who had some from the same batch.
 

Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
It was green and in good shape. They just started toppling over since first of the year.Every bad front that came through would knock one down.I just happened to pull this one up to look at the root.These trees look really good.I had high hopes!!!! Im going to contact another guy who had some from the same batch.

sorry to hear that. I don't know answers, but I have had trouble growing trees too...
 

sandhills hunter

Ten Pointer
I agree with ER could be volves. I've had voles do this samething to trees and shrubs, they will literally fall over. Don't know if voles are partial to sawtooths though.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Voles was the first thing I thought of, but I can't tell in that picture. Voles are the the only thing I personally have experienced where the trunk would just be a stump like that. They will eat the roots right up to the trunk and you can just lift it out of the ground. Vole damage will have sharply cut roots though, where they have chewed on it.
 

nc rabbit hunter

Guest
It must be voles. I am noticing roots are cut off at the nub.How do you guys take care of voles?
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
It must be voles. I am noticing roots are cut off at the nub.How do you guys take care of voles?

This is a situation here in NC that shows just how much the folks out there who make the rules actually know about our land...the darn things are protected...legally you can't kill them!!!!!!!!!!!
I've heard....that they are succeptable to peanut butter covered rat bait, peanut flavored rat pellets, bird seed with various poisons mixed into the baits....all covered with a clay pot and in the area of their holes and runs of course to keep the other critters from getting ahold of the baits intended for the voles....or so I've heard. ;)
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
This is a situation here in NC that shows just how much the folks out there who make the rules actually know about our land...the darn things are protected...legally you can't kill them!!!!!!!!!!!
I've heard....that they are succeptable to peanut butter covered rat bait, peanut flavored rat pellets, bird seed with various poisons mixed into the baits....all covered with a clay pot and in the area of their holes and runs of course to keep the other critters from getting ahold of the baits intended for the voles....or so I've heard. ;)

BTW..if you plant the trees in a bucket of good soil, they very well may develop a root ball again and can be replanted if they haven't died....harsh trimming of roots before transplanting is a good way to stimulate root development...can't hurt to try...I'd trim the tops down if they have damage to as short as you can..sawtooths are tough..they may make it untill the fall and be able to replant them
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
.the darn things are protected...legally you can't kill them!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't believe that is correct. Pine voles are our most common culprit and they can be killed a couple of different ways.

Moles are considered wildlife and are protected without a depredation permit, but you could get one with tree damage.
 

wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I don't believe that is correct. Pine voles are our most common culprit and they can be killed a couple of different ways.

Moles are considered wildlife and are protected without a depredation permit, but you could get one with tree damage.

It's not correct. You just can't use pesticides to kill them
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
you can kill them one at a time, you just cant broadcast a chemical to kill them. you will need a permit to legally kill them but no one is gonna mess with you killing voles.

Here is how to get rid of them.

Take a victor mouse trap the old style wood ones but not the metal bait piece ones. use the ones that have the yellow square pan that smells like cheese. Put a dab of peanut butter on it and place right at hole and cover with an upside down bucket.

You will catch many like this. just make sure you put a bucket or pot over it as they like it dark and also the bucket or pot keeps out non targeted animals. . I have caught upwards of 15 a day with just 4 or 5 traps set at holes.

also when you replant put some permatil around the base.

DSCF1335.jpg DSCF1337.jpg
 
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Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I've never had alot of luck with the peanut butter working after it gets warm, too many local ants around that rob me in just a few minutes of putting it out. I've about given up growing anything below ground in our garden because of these critters, they are a terror. The guys at the local Southern States told me about the vermin being protected ( I took them at their word) and about the rat pellets being effective as bait, good luck with whatever you try and please let us know what works....I'd love to hear about it before Fall onion sets and carrot time.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
I've never had alot of luck with the peanut butter working after it gets warm, too many local ants around that rob me in just a few minutes of putting it out. I've about given up growing anything below ground in our garden because of these critters, they are a terror. The guys at the local Southern States told me about the vermin being protected ( I took them at their word) and about the rat pellets being effective as bait, good luck with whatever you try and please let us know what works....I'd love to hear about it before Fall onion sets and carrot time.

there is ONE that is protected here in nc...cant recall the name of the one right now but because of that one species it is illegal to sale any rodent killer in nc labeled to kill voles .........most voles in nc are not protected, so you can kill them with traps.. Rozol will kill voles though it is illegal to use for voles in NC and while other rodenticides will kill them I don't recommend it as the traps will take care of them.
you have to drive across the line to Virginia to get one labeled for voles. never had a problem with the peanut butter in the summer. usually if the voles are bad you are too busy throwing the buggers out of the trap aand rebaiting.
 
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sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Unless they have changed the laws in the last few years, you can use a rodenticide for voles. The two most common species we have are the meadow vole and the pine vole. The pine vole has been classified as a "pest" species (think mice/rats), so it CAN legally be killed using a rodenticide. The pine vole also happens to be the most common vole that causes damage to turf and ornamental trees. One product on the market that works for them is called Rodent Rid, but it is an RUP I believe.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
well I may have misspoke on being illegal to use rodenticides because my handbook from ncstate actually recommends (if using a rodentcide) to use rozol which is sold in nc as a rat and mouse killer and not a vole killer. I sell rozol.

what I do know is here in nc I cannot sell a product that is labeled to kill voles. My distributers will not even send it to me, so that lead employees believe they cant be used since we cant buy something labeled for voles.
that said the animal damage control book recommends using the peanut butter/molasses and only rodentcides as a last resort. if you do use rozol I would pour it into the hole and make sure to put a pot or bucket with a brick over it to keep digging animals(non target animally) out.
also, voles carry Hanta-virus so wear protective gloves if removing dead ones from traps.
 
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