No reason not to release a few elk at Black Balsam in Haywood County

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Raspy1 said:
Serious question here. If there's no deer there what makes you think elk could make it there? Got to be something or a lack of something for deer to make it there as adaptable and pesty as they are.
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As Frostcat and others can tell you, there used to be huge herds of deer up there in the 1970s and 1980s. It used to be burned by the forest service.

The deer numbers have declined over the last 20 years as most deer have migrated down from the wilderness and around human habitation. Browse has matured.

My feeling is with the open land up there the elk would find grass to eat. Deer don't like grass as much as elk.

Lots of grass and blueberries up there with mixed red spruce and fraser fir stands. I don't think spruce and fir are high on the list of browse for white tailed deer. Elk out West seem to like stands of spruce and fir.

Basically as I think the habitat as matured over the years (like in Cataloochee) it favors elk over deer
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Now where are they going to find grass up there. :rolleyes: Yep, off the intended target area and on private land. There sure isn't that much grass on the bald and the mountain.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
nccatfisher said:
Now where are they going to find grass up there. :rolleyes: Yep, off the intended target area and on private land. There sure isn't that much grass on the bald and the mountain.
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Yes there is.

There is a lot more grass than you think. That is what makes the area suitable.

Burn it a few times and things will only get better.

That is what the Forest Service wanted to do in 1997, manage the area for elk.
 
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Frostcat

Frostcat

Twelve Pointer
nccatfisher said:
Now where are they going to find grass up there. :rolleyes: Yep, off the intended target area and on private land. There sure isn't that much grass on the bald and the mountain.
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In the higher elevations, there is a low growing grass that is shade tolerant. It a fine blade grass that looks a little like creeping red fescue. At one time there was a lot of deer up there and also a lot of hunters. You could do some really long range shooting up there. A lot of folks traded their 30/30's for a magnum and a Tasco scope and thought they were 1000 yard deer killers. There were a lot of deer shot and never recovered, after all they are supposed to drop in their tracks when you use a magnum. Then the NCWRC allowed doe hunting because they said the mountains were overpopulated with deer. I think with over hunting, disease, and coyotes, it wasn't long till overpopulation was not a problem. The reported harvest in Haywood County went from 317 in 1990 with the majority coming from the Shining Rock area to 58 in 2004.
 
nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
Yes there is.

There is a lot more grass than you think. That is what makes the area suitable.

Burn it a few times and things will only get better.

That is what the Forest Service wanted to do in 1997, manage the area for elk.
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Who is going to do this burning?
 
nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
US Forest Service. They already burn other areas.
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So what your saying they are going to start managing NC's elk herd just for you? Would this be before or after you get the statewide baiting thing fixed?
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
No.

But the USFS did want to release elk into the Black Balsam area back in 1997.

Burning would benefit more than elk anyway. It would cut back the brush and invasive bushes.

You can't bait on game lands.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
No.

But the USFS did want to release elk into the Black Balsam area back in 1997.

Burning would benefit more than elk anyway. It would cut back the brush and invasive bushes.

You can't bait on game lands.
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And the result was..............................................they didn't. Your deflecting again
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
No deflection.

Just what I would like to see happen.

I would like to see some elk released at Black Balsam and see what happens.

The elk around Maggie Valley a few farmers are complaining about could be relocated as a solution.

YMMV
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
No deflection.

Just what I would like to see happen.

I would like to see some elk released at Black Balsam and see what happens.

The elk around Maggie Valley a few farmers are complaining about could be relocated as a solution.

YMMV
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You said you were going to concentrate your interest this year to get baiting laws even across the board earlier this year. Like that was supposed to carry some big impact I guess. :rolleyes:

I am guessing as far as the elk release you probably wanted things as a child also, did you get all of them? There is a saying for grown ups it involves a couple hands and a couple options about which one will fill up faster. YAAI
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
You do realize the NCWRC is investigating releasing elk on game lands west of I-77 right now?

No idea what will come of it, I suspect nothing.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would not mind seeing elk released on game lands.

The baiting thing is something the legislature would have to deal with.

Baiting and Sunday hunting, the last two major issues the legislature should turn over to the NCWRC.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
You do realize the NCWRC is investigating releasing elk on game lands west of I-77 right now?

No idea what will come of it, I suspect nothing.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would not mind seeing elk released on game lands.

The baiting thing is something the legislature would have to deal with.

Baiting and Sunday hunting, the last two major issues the legislature should turn over to the NCWRC.
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I was almost positive you were going to handle the baiting issue single handedly in your earlier post sounded like it, well before you modified it. You ever think the reason they don't release elk on GL is because they have enough problems with idiots shooting them as it is, it would only compound the problem to dump them out where existing hunting for big game is happening when they have parks and sanctuaries that are easier to control to they get established? That in the nutshell was a deciding factor for not putting them in more open areas the original release.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
No I was just going to suggest baiting changes to my legislators.

The NCWRC should get authority to change baiting laws.

YMMV

As for elk the state did not want them but they got them now and have to deal with them.

People who wanted elk in NC went around the state and got the Park Service to release them.

The original idea was to stock them at Black Balsam Knob so they could be hunted publicly.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
There are plenty of things they could do with them, their not near as unhappy with them as they seem. They just are in somewhat of a bind they only have so many elk and a bunch of hands stuck out.

You don't think baiting changes haven't already been suggested to legislators? LOL

YAAI
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
They were last year. Now the WRC can legalize (and did) baiting for bears.

NCWRC is finding out the elk are not the huge problems they thought they would be. Some localized problems not widespread like Kentucky.

That might change as the population gets north of 200 animals.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Yeah, they really did a good job leagalizing that, just wait to the deer season comes in around the fringe areas and see what happens there. You think there was some frivilous citations written to the bear hunters, watch this. ;) And you can't tell me it was an accident.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
I'd like to see the NCWRC get the authority over all baiting (deer, bear, ect) and the authority over Sunday gun hunting.
 
nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I don't have a Ph d. in .net biology like you but that doesn't look like prime elk habitat to me. Or not like what I have seen them in before.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
nccatfisher said:
I don't have a Ph d. in .net biology like you but that doesn't look like prime elk habitat to me. Or not like what I have seen them in before.
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Most of WNC is not prime elk habitat.

Now Kentucky's reclaimed strip mines is good elk habitat but we do not have that in NC.
 
wturkey01

wturkey01

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
The problem with Shining Rock is that in most of the higher elevations, the soil is only about 1 foot thick and is very fragile. Note that the trails and eroded areas are basically exposed rock.

The lower elevations around Hwy 215 have thicker soils but is mostly composed of laurel thickets.

The biologists who recommended SRWA as a possible release site for elk were wrong and have been transferred out.
 
wturkey01

wturkey01

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
Good info.

Then how was that area able to sustain the large herds of deer?
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There were few deer in that area before the big uncontrolled burns back in the '40s which opened up the overstory. Timber grows slowly in those elevations.

Occasional controlled burns following the war years resulted in green vegetation which sustained a population for several years. The population peaked a few years after that and have been declining since.

I was involved in a "test hunt" back in the '70s wherein we took out a few does for autopsy........there were high levels of bacteria and abomasum problems which indicated overpopulation even then. That's about the time the population decline began.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
So if the area cannot sustain much in the way of any ungulates (deer or elk) why would the Forest Service be interested in releasing elk in the area?

Not sure how they plan on managing the area just outside the wilderness boundary.

I saw as much grass habitat as Cataloochee.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
So if the area cannot sustain much in the way of any ungulates (deer or elk) why would the Forest Service be interested in releasing elk in the area?

Not sure how they plan on managing the area just outside the wilderness boundary.
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Stunted plants if you noticed in the video.
 
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