Robert Brown Ph.D "Blast" Representative Roger West

BR549

Twelve Pointer
Dr. Robert Brown, "Blast" Representative Roger West for his deliberate one sided approach in handling Tuesdays WRC / House Select Committee Hearing and taking a clear path by offering the "Microphone" to a few that aligned with recent Campaign Contributions while "Muting" Sound Science!


(Dr. Brown's Quote; from News and Observer Article / Comments)

"In the NC Legislature's recent lambasting of the NC WRC over deer farming, it only allowed the deer farmers to speak - not these who oppose this travesty.

Rep. West said he didn't want to be "intimidated" by the WRC staff or others who oppose this ecological and ethical travesty. He claimed the WRC doesn't know anything about deer farming Well I do. I've worked with and raised deer for research in PA, TX and MS, and worked with deer farmers in OR, TX, and MS. Here's what I know:

1) There is no such thing as a deer (or falling tree) proof fence,
2) CWD is the Ebola of the deer species - there is no reliable live test, it is fatal, and once here, it is here forever - in the soil,
3) A deer farm in Ohio recently had 294 cases of CWD, 4) CWD in 3 PA herds came from infected farms,
5) They say CWD can't be transferred to other animals, but it is believed to have come from sheep with scrapie housed next to penned deer at Colorado State University,
6) Deer can also bring in Tb and brucellosis, fleas, ticks and parasites,
7) Of the 37 deer farms in NC, only 13 have more than 10 animals and only 2 have more than 50 - this is an industry worth risking our native deer herd for?,
8) Thus far, no CWD has been transferred to humans, but 200 people in England died of Mad Cow Disease - a similar prion,
9) Wisconsin has spent $ 25 million on trying to control CWD in that state,
10) The Ohio deer farmer was paid nearly $ 100,000 by the taxpayers for the deer that had to be slaughtered,
11) The USDA "certifies" deer farms if they have been disease free for 5 years, but the PA farm that was infected had been clean for 9 years,
12) The Public Trust Doctrine, and I believe the NC Constitution, state that native wildlife belong to all citizens and cannot owned, or sold by anyone,
13) There are over 200,000 deer hunters in NC who spend $ 187 million on their sport, generate 3,400 jobs and $ 20 million in taxes every year,
14) When the WRC asked for public comments - they got nearly 2,000, with only 8 citizens in favor of deer farming,
15) Neither the Pope and Young Club nor the Boone & Crockett Club allow deer killed in canned hunts behind fences to be entered in their record books - they believe in Fair Chase,

And, Mr. West, the mission of the WRC is to protect the wildlife resources of this state, not to protect a few wealthy deer farmers. Do you really want to bring down a huge sport industry and put the entire native deer population of NC at risk.

Who do your represent? Are you intimidated now"?

Dr. Brown is the former Dean of the College of Natural Resources (2006-2012) at NC State University

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/18/4334170_deer-farmers-accuse-state-agency.html?rh=1

tags, representative roger west, rep. roger west, captive cervids, cwd, indy star, ryan sabalow, buck fever, north carolina wildlife resources commission, north carolina public trust doctrine, usda, shooting pens, deer pen operators, roger west, tom smith
 
Last edited:

BR549

Twelve Pointer
House Bill 66 & Rep. Roger West

HB 66 & Captive Cervids

attachment.php

[video=vimeo;110344531]http://vimeo.com/110344531[/video]




tags, representative roger west, rep. roger west, captive cervids, cwd, indy star, ryan sabalow, buck fever, north carolina wildlife resources commission, north carolina public trust doctrine, usda, shooting pens, deer pen operators, roger west, tom smith
HB66.jpg
 
Last edited:

BR549

Twelve Pointer
"NCWRC Put Deer Farms Out Of Business" Quote Tom Smith… (Really???)

[video=youtube;_4TDLlEUA5U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_4TDLlEUA5U[/video]

"NCWRC Put Deer Farms Out Of Business" Quote Tom Smith… (Really???)….

Representative Roger West, most recently had a chance to make further revisions to our "State Captivity Laws" (2013)…. But he didn't…

Tom Smith should look no further than "His Back Pocket" - Rep. Roger West as Captive Deer may not be Sold until Rep. West changes the law… "Something we do all the time"… (Roger's Very Words…)

Its hard to be out of business when you can continue "Farming", "Farm Raised Cervid's" (Red Deer, Axis / Exotic's)… A practice that North Carolina Wildlife Commission just expanded in its most recent meeting and vote, in a show of support for the Deer Farmers. That fact was omitted in Rep. Wests "Kangaroo Court" this past Tuesday...

It seems Rep. Roger West only allows his committee members to hear one side of the story and allow "Misinformation" such as the above "Out of Business" statement to be inaccurately peddled to the media and his sitting members of the Legislature. What a "TOXIC" Witch Hunt and sheer disrespect for the 600+ hard working employees of the WRC whom have managed to successfully keep NC a CWD Free State! Kudos to everyone of them!!

In Summary, the Wildlife Resources Commission can't pass a Rule that "Roger's Law's" Do Not Allow.

Its just that simple...
 
Last edited:

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Considering deer farming of white tails and elk are already allowed on Cherokee lands, I don't see the big deal.

So if the NCWRC is not targeting deer farmers, why no more elk or white tails behind a fence?

This is the agency that blocked extra elk for the Smokies.

And, Mr. West, the mission of the WRC is to protect the wildlife resources of this state, not to protect a few wealthy deer farmers. Do you really want to bring down a huge sport industry and put the entire native deer population of NC at risk.

A huge sport industry? In NC? :what:
 
Last edited:

FITZH2O

Old Mossy Horns
Dr. Robert Brown, "Blast" Representative Roger West for his deliberate one sided approach in handling Tuesdays WRC / House Select Committee Hearing and taking a clear path by offering the "Microphone" to a few that aligned with recent Campaign Contributions while "Muting" Sound Science!


(Dr. Brown's Quote; from News and Observer Article / Comments)

"In the NC Legislature's recent lambasting of the NC WRC over deer farming, it only allowed the deer farmers to speak - not these who oppose this travesty.

Rep. West said he didn't want to be "intimidated" by the WRC staff or others who oppose this ecological and ethical travesty. He claimed the WRC doesn't know anything about deer farming Well I do. I've worked with and raised deer for research in PA, TX and MS, and worked with deer farmers in OR, TX, and MS. Here's what I know:

1) There is no such thing as a deer (or falling tree) proof fence,
2) CWD is the Ebola of the deer species - there is no reliable live test, it is fatal, and once here, it is here forever - in the soil,
3) A deer farm in Ohio recently had 294 cases of CWD, 4) CWD in 3 PA herds came from infected farms,
5) They say CWD can't be transferred to other animals, but it is believed to have come from sheep with scrapie housed next to penned deer at Colorado State University,
6) Deer can also bring in Tb and brucellosis, fleas, ticks and parasites,
7) Of the 37 deer farms in NC, only 13 have more than 10 animals and only 2 have more than 50 - this is an industry worth risking our native deer herd for?,
8) Thus far, no CWD has been transferred to humans, but 200 people in England died of Mad Cow Disease - a similar prion,
9) Wisconsin has spent $ 25 million on trying to control CWD in that state,
10) The Ohio deer farmer was paid nearly $ 100,000 by the taxpayers for the deer that had to be slaughtered,
11) The USDA "certifies" deer farms if they have been disease free for 5 years, but the PA farm that was infected had been clean for 9 years,
12) The Public Trust Doctrine, and I believe the NC Constitution, state that native wildlife belong to all citizens and cannot owned, or sold by anyone,
13) There are over 200,000 deer hunters in NC who spend $ 187 million on their sport, generate 3,400 jobs and $ 20 million in taxes every year,
14) When the WRC asked for public comments - they got nearly 2,000, with only 8 citizens in favor of deer farming,
15) Neither the Pope and Young Club nor the Boone & Crockett Club allow deer killed in canned hunts behind fences to be entered in their record books - they believe in Fair Chase,

And, Mr. West, the mission of the WRC is to protect the wildlife resources of this state, not to protect a few wealthy deer farmers. Do you really want to bring down a huge sport industry and put the entire native deer population of NC at risk.

Who do your represent? Are you intimidated now"?

Dr. Brown is the former Dean of the College of Natural Resources (2006-2012) at NC State University

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11/18/4334170_deer-farmers-accuse-state-agency.html?rh=1

tags, representative roger west, rep. roger west, captive cervids, cwd, indy star, ryan sabalow, buck fever, north carolina wildlife resources commission, north carolina public trust doctrine, usda, shooting pens, deer pen operators, roger west, tom smith

If CWD came from sheep, why aren't we getting rid of sheep farms?

Points 6 and 8 made me laugh. It's funny that he mentions "sound science" in the beginning and then brings up fleas, ticks, mad cow, and Ebola. What a bunch of nonsense.

Point 15 is irrelevant.

What is with the "tags" paragraph at the end? I have been meaning to ask for a while now.
 

BR549

Twelve Pointer
Considering deer farming of white tails and elk are already allowed on Cherokee lands, I don't see the big deal.

So if the NCWRC is not targeting deer farmers, why no more elk or white tails behind a fence?

This is the agency that blocked extra elk for the Smokies.

The Cherokee Nation is not subject to WRC Rules (VA Federal Court Case). In that regard you are correct. Otherwise you can not put a Whitetail Deer or Elk in captivity except for rehabilitating purposes and on a temporary basis. The current law does not not allow for the sale of Wildlife. Captive Cervids are defined as Wildlife by NC Law.

The NC Leg has to make the sale of specific wildlife (Whitetail Deer and or Elk) a legal activity then one can assume rules would be adopted to regulate such.

But your are 100% Correct with regard to the 100 Acre Shooting Pen located on the Cherokee Nations Land.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Were those animals from Ohio ever tested for CWD prior to being brought in to NC?

For the record I commented in support of farming white tails and elk.

I find it hard to believe elk can get CWD but red deer cannot.

For many years they were considered the same species and freely interbreed.

ETA: Apparently Eurasian red deer can get CWD.

More proof the NCWRC is incompetent.
 
Last edited:

influence

Guest
How can it be considered a Sport Industry in NC! When Shooting inside a Deer Pen is Illegal in NC! Anyway where would the Sport be!
 

hunter

Eight Pointer
Contributor
How can it be considered a Sport Industry in NC! When Shooting inside a Deer Pen is Illegal in NC! Anyway where would the Sport be!

I believe he was referring to hunting deer outside of fences being the sport industry. Not much sport to plugging one in a pen....


Hunter
 

Wildlifepro51

Guest
Were those animals from Ohio ever tested for CWD prior to being brought in to NC?

For the record I commented in support of farming white tails and elk.

I find it hard to believe elk can get CWD but red deer cannot.

For many years they were considered the same species and freely interbreed.

ETA: Apparently Eurasian red deer can get CWD.

More proof the NCWRC is incompetent.[/QUOT

Guys the WRC exempts themselves from USDA protocols. They should abide by the same standards as everyone else. For instance the second release of elk from its high fence park in win cave into Custer national park. A Elk herd that has a 40% infection rate but yet healthy enough to outgrow its living area. The USDA was opposed to them doing this a second time and again with help from he Rocky Mountain Elk Asso. I guess the cwd scaremongers did not affect them much did it. Was that sound management by the state ?? No it was not.
 
Last edited:

Wildlifepro51

Guest
(Dr. Brown's Quote; from News and Observer Article / Comments)

"In the NC Legislature's recent lambasting of the NC WRC over deer farming, it only allowed the deer farmers to speak - not these who oppose this travesty. Since when has farming been a travesty? It's about time farmers had an input to this and not clouded by states rhetoric.

Rep. West said he didn't want to be "intimidated" by the WRC staff or others who oppose this ecological and ethical travesty. Do they want to form an ethics police or committee? He claimed the WRC doesn't know anything about deer farming Well I do. I've worked with and raised deer for research in PA, TX and MS, and worked with deer farmers in OR, TX, and MS. Here's what I know:

1) There is no such thing as a deer (or falling tree) proof fence,
2) CWD is the Ebola of the deer species Comparing Ebola to CWD is stupid. Ebola is a hemorrhagic disease and in no way related to cwd. That was just plain stupid to make a statement like that.But its the scare tactics they use... Deer can't get CWD by casual contact from other deer. It is classified by USDA/APHIS as a low infectious disease. it is not highly contagious as Ebola. - there is no reliable live test,( Bravo Seirra on that answer) (Yes there are reliable testing being done now) it is fatal, and once here, it is here forever in the soil, Really?? Soil tests at Brakke's by Dr. Haley found no residual in the soil. If they can't test for it in the soil, how do we know it's there, yet forever??




3) A deer farm in Ohio recently had 294 cases of CWD, ?????? I don't think so. You better fact check your data a little better. A farm in Minnesota that was depopulated had only one case.

4) CWD in 3 PA herds came from infected farms, I believe that the main farm wasn't determined, possibly from the wild. Glen Dice could better answer this one.
5) They say CWD can't be transferred to other animals, but it is believed to have come from sheep with scrapie housed next to penned deer at Colorado State University, CWD is scrapes, are we putting the nations sheep industry under the microscope.[they don't want to go there]
6) Deer can also bring in Tb and brucellosis, fleas, ticks and parasites, deer that move across state lines have to be tested for these or from accredited herds. Also deer farms routinely worm and vaccinate for parasites. None of these are an issue, he knows this though.

7) Of the 37 deer farms in NC, only 13 have more than 10 animals and only 2 have more than 50 - this is an industry worth risking our native deer herd for?, Are these low numbers due to oppression of an industry by the state? I see this a liberal democratic outdated thinking.
8) Thus far, no CWD has been transferred to humans, but 200 people in England died of Mad Cow Disease - a similar prion, Is he trying to refute government data??? . If this concerns him, why aren't they testing 100% of the wild deer harvested?

9) Wisconsin has spent $ 25 million on trying to control CWD in that state, The CWD outbreak has not been linked to the farming industry. He is trying to do that here. The reverse in Wisconsin is true. The farms in Wisconsin that have had CWD have been traced back to the wild. Also it needs to be pointed out that CWD was probably brought in by state research facilities, and THEY had the escapes, and handled disposals poorly
.
10) The Ohio deer farmer was paid nearly $ 100,000 by the taxpayers for the deer that had to be slaughtered, ??? To my knowledge there has been no indemnification by USDA to anyone in Ohio. But Indemnification is part of the "taking clause" of the constitution. [I believe the 5th amendment] The government buys your private property, you need to get paid Correct!!!. These are RIGHTS no citizen wants to lose.

11) The USDA "certifies" deer farms if they have been disease free for 5 years, but the PA farm that was infected had been clean for 9 years, This just shows it arrived by other vectors. Through the fence by wild deer, crows, or feed brought in. The feed thing is well-documented now. Univ. of Wisc. can be sited, also the Canadians tried to ban movements out of endemic zones. DR Brown do you want me to hold your feet to the fire on this one? Again can we afford the wild deer herd any longer, with these contaminated feed risks? Also USDA research shows animals die 33 [+ or - 2 ] months after exposure.

12) The Public Trust Doctrine, and I believe the NC Constitution, state that native wildlife belong to all citizens and cannot owned, or sold by anyone, The Public Trust Doctrine was designed by the Wildlife Agencies with no input from any other stakeholders. One of the original drafters was Giest an immigrant from Communist East Germany to Canada.He had well noted strong socialist and communist viewpoints. It also promotes the egalitarian system, which says we are all equal in hunting, and should all have the same hunting privileges. In a Capitalistic society [USA], we know this is not true. This is a socialistic doctrine. Conservatives will reel over this one if it is exposed for what it is
.
13) There are over 200,000 deer hunters in NC who spend $ 187 million on their sport, generate 3,400 jobs and $ 20 million in taxes every year, Public hunting is an entitlement, deal with it. The deer farming industry has grown to a $4 billion dollar industry nationwide. This is Agribusiness plain and simple. If it is trying to be squashed in North Carolina, what could it grow to?

14) When the WRC asked for public comments - they got nearly 2,000, with only 8 citizens in favor of deer farming This was incorrect there were more than 8. In the August issue of Outdoor Life, one of the big three outdoor magazines, they did a poll with nearly 4,000 responses of hunters. The question: How about Game farms? 62% said not for me, but don't ban them. Only 17% said "They should be banned" Missouri also had a poll, the questions were so slanted that even I had to agree with some of them.
15) Neither the Pope and Young Club nor the Boone & Crockett Club allow deer killed in canned hunts behind fences to be entered in their record books - they believe in Fair Chase, So what?? SCI recognizes us. QDMA even has some of it's directors hunt preserves and (Chris Asplundh a board director own a deer farm in Pa also owns a preserve in Fla). Pope & Young changed their website this summer and deleted quotes by its founders. These organizations have all been taken over by the elitists, and don't represent the common hunters opinion. Why are they distancing themselves from their founders???




Here are the quotes they deleted:

Monday, April 14, 2014

"Our ability to hunt... is natural and well-earned."

Principles of Bowhunting - Ethics


Principles of Bowhunting | Ethics | Rules of Fair Chase

Club's Position Statements | Equipment Definitions

Our ability to hunt, to be hunters, is natural and well-earned. But, in this day and age, we must never forget that it is a privilege that could, in theory, be lost. In the 21st Century and beyond, hunting’s continued existence will depend much on how we conduct ourselves as hunters…in other words, our ethics.

Ethics are a moral code of conduct. They pertain to what is considered right and wrong. Such a collection of principles and values can be both on an individual personal level, and as part of a shared group belief system.

Aldo Leopold wrote, “A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.”

In his book, Beyond Fair Chase, Jim Posewitz noted, “The most important measure of hunting success is how you feel about yourself…”

Accepting an ethical code will naturally bring you greater satisfaction in what you do. As time goes by, and as an ethical code is exercised, it will grow stronger and “higher.” This is what we should all aspire to do.




“In the joy of hunting is intimately woven the love of the great outdoors. The beauty of the woods, valleys, mountains, and skies feeds the soul of the sportsman where the quest of game whets only his appetite. After all, it is not the killing that brings satisfaction; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." Dr. Saxton Pope, 1923
_____________________________________________________________



And, Mr. West, the mission of the WRC is to protect the wildlife resources of this state, not to protect a few wealthy deer farmers. Do you really want to bring down a huge sport industry and put the entire native deer population of NC at risk. How are they putting this a risk??? Can't our industry supplement and help to improve theirs?? If farms would go away, will think they not ever get CWD??? According to Prusiners own theory, 1 in a million will come down with a prion type disease. That means North Carolina should be getting 1-2 a year in the wild. They haven't found any, why? They aren't looking!!! I asked Tracy Nichols (USDA Aphis) while I was in in K.C. if these naturally occurring ones would be able to spread CWD, she said absolutely yes. Again, if the state isn't testing at 100%, they don't know if they have little pockets of CWD brewing out there, from these naturally occuring ones. It all started as small pockets in Wisconsin, now look what it has done.
 
Last edited:

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
How exactly do you claim that the NCWRC exempts itself from it's own policies by complaining about what happened on NATIONAL Park Service Land? That's federal land, and the WRC has no more control over that than they do Alligator River NWR. Nice try.

Also, you don't like the Public Trust Doctrine. We get that. You'd rather be under the European model, where the landowner owns everything on their land, wildlife included. After all, it's no skin off your back that other folks can't afford to pay for fenced hunts. That's not your problem, it's theirs. Keep it up, eventually we'll be just like Europe, where only the rich can hunt...
 

Wildlifepro51

Guest
Tell you what young man , Since you have no experience in these areas of captive cervids to our knowledge and are a single minded thinker , I will give you answers when I get back to NC tomorrow . Gloves come off .And now you will see what it will be like to sit at the big boy table. By the way what was your MOS?
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
Not that it matters for this discussion, or that I even owe it to you, but it was 31S (now 25S). Apparently I just hit a nerve…
 
Last edited:

BR549

Twelve Pointer
The "Big Boy" table stands on shaky legs, only propped up by recent checks written to greeze this bill through. West has done NOTHING but CUT Wildlife Funding for years! I expect the public may demand he find some new committees to Co-Chair. The legs on his chair may be equally as shaky.

If he would have better understood the law, he may not of had this recent black eye.
 

BR549

Twelve Pointer
Clearly given Rep West public one sided comments at his Kangaroo Court Hearing this past Tuesday, he is now unable to appropriate funding to WRC in an unbiased fashion... Kinda brings a tear to you eye doesn't it...

Bottom-line, no need to even talk CWD as North Carolina does not allow for the sale of Captive Cervids, thus we really have no CWD risk.
 
Last edited:

Wildlifepro51

Guest
Not that it matters for this discussion, or that I even owe it to you, but it was 31S (now 25S). Apparently I just hit a nerve…

No nerve struck, That said all I needed to know, lol... It seems you always have a childish remark or comment for some members post on here from time to time. I see it just as a attempt to stir a pot or just not grown up yet. A far as WRC being exempt from USDA protocols they are and they need to abide by the same regs as the people they enforce them on. A second Wind Cave release of some elk that have been exposed to others that have cwd in the herd was a stupid move by that states agency Both state and federal. Also as stated USDA advised against this. I did not say our state had any thing to do with it. Poor try on your part! As far as the doctrine written by a communist I believe in private property rights for everyone. If you buy the land its yours. If you decide to fence in your land to keep out trespassers or poachers and have better control of management of whats on your land its ones own personal preference .It seems your a big believer in the states single track way of thinking and that's your decision. I have found in life that the straight line thinkers are very blind or open to reason or suggestion. You can tell them whats right and they will not believe it . Sometimes you have to show a person the truth instead of talking to them about it. The WRC had two invitations to see the truth and they did nothing as always and believe the biased information Cobb puts in front of them.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
You calling me a pot stirrer or immature is so hypocritical it's laughable, but to each their own.

You never said the state had anything to do with the release, eh? You sure seem to imply it here:

"Guys the WRC exempts themselves from USDA protocols. They should abide by the same standards as everyone else. For instance the second release of elk from its high fence park in win cave into Custer national park. A Elk herd that has a 40% infection rate but yet healthy enough to outgrow its living area. The USDA was opposed to them doing this a second time and again with help from he Rocky Mountain Elk Asso. I guess the cwd scaremongers did not affect them much did it. Was that sound management by the state ?? No it was not."

Maybe that's just my "Moo-U" education talking.

As far as the public trust doctrine, I have no idea if your "written by a communist" claim is even true, but it is probably the most socialist legislation we have, along with the Pittman-Robertson and Dingle-Johnson Acts. However, you look at wildlife populations here and the ones in Europe and you can see which model is superior. If you care to look you'll also see a major difference in the number and demographics of the European hunter vs. the American one. In Europe hunting has always been, and still is a privilege reserved for the wealthy. Not the middle class, the wealthy. This is because they simply fence in all their land. In North America we said early on we wanted to protect that privilege for the common man, and it's worked. I have no problem with private property rights. In fact, I fully supported the Landowner Protection Act and other such laws. Wildlife don't recognize our arbitrary boundaries, however. We've agreed as a society to hold them in public trust. I'm not sure what's so evil about that, but we're each entitled to our own opinions.

Finally, you calling me single-minded, well Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle. He's sitting here at the big boy's table. They aren't really serving anything worth having, though……
 

Wildlifepro51

Guest
Not your Moo U, I think its just your lack of understanding or not having any first hand experience in captive cervids . I think I may have said this before , Get about 10 years of first hand field experience in the captive industry and free range and then I think you may be able to see things a little better to offer some sound science based facts instead of opinions or statements . There is already several of those people on here already, I would hope your above their low level of misinforming people. For the background on Geist Yes its true about his communist upbringing and ties. Oh and finally Re Browns poor choice of word referring Ebola to CWD Do you agree with him? Comparing CWD to Ebola in a public setting was just plain poor choice of words and done as a scare tactic. Honestly it was a joke .
 
Last edited:

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
Dean Brown knows a lot more about wildlife disease than I do, and knowing him personally as an overall good person I trust his expertise. That said, I don't always agree with him. I don't believe, however, that he was comparing CWD to Ebola directly (as similar diseases), but more as diseases that both have great potential for harm. No, I don't have 10 years of captive cervid experience, or even farming experience. It doesn't take a 30 year farmer to know the basics of how a farm operates, though. I also didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I can read, and comprehend. It's not hard. I have firsthand knowledge of what happens when you combine things like hurricanes, fences, and trees.

I also take great offense when somebody blatantly and indiscriminately attacks an agency full of good people that bust their asses everyday for me and you, especially when said attacks are made solely because you disagree.

I'm also very aware of how science works. It's slow, and for good reason. Truth of the matter is that if all of your tests that you've been hyping over the last few months were ready for widespread use then the WRC would be using them. You have about 3-5 talking points that you hammer on these threads, and I want to believe what you say are facts. I can't help but believe that you're presenting your opinion as fact, however, and then expecting everybody to lock step with you just because you posted a couple of numbers.

I guess with your logic you need about 10 years of trapping experience to understand how coyotes can affect a deer herd……
 

BR549

Twelve Pointer
Great Article in today's (Sundays) N&O!!

The farmer lobby hopes to build on its gains in the next legislative session and will try again to move regulation to agriculture.

Rep. Roger West, a Republican from Marble in Cherokee County, said there will be legislation stripping deer farms from the wildlife commission's authority.

"I would author that in a heartbeat," West said. "I think that's one way to resolve the issue so maybe these people can move forward."

West is chairman of the House committee that oversees the Wildlife Resources Commission. The committee was formed by House Speaker Thom Tillis but has had only one meeting --- the one last week when wildlife commission officials were criticized by farmers and not allowed to speak.

Read more here: http://www.thestate.com/2014/11/22/3829998/nc-deer-farmers-hunters-battle.html#storylink=cpy
 

Wildlifepro51

Guest
To reply to your coyote question, I trapped to make extra money for school as a kid and to have money for myself to help buy some school cloths, As an adult we trap for clients in several states to aid in their management programs, I also use several trappers here in our state that I give permission to trap and remove the coyotes from clients properties again as part of our management programs. I have trapped more than my share of predators and again use this a strong management tool. I wish more people would do this instead of hear them complain or come up with excuses why they cannot have time to take care of it.

Re Brown, Yes I respect some of his work in the past years also. Not everyone will agree either on a few points. Again when he said in public( which I have a video recording)stating that cwd was the ebola of the deer world was a very poor use of words and again ebola is in no way a relation . Its a hemorrhagic disease and if there were a comparison it would be EHD. I honestly do provide factual data for people to make better informed decisions as opposed to br549 and the other new guy that got busted with a diploma he bought online .Or the paranoid vegan from TX Its these people that can only cut and paste or as seen and caught and changing others words to suite their needs. Also Dick Hamilton making the statement that cwd was decimating PA deer herds was an absolute false statement. A lie in most people eyes with common sense. But expected from a guy like him that was fired from the wrc.
In my prior military career I was able to spend time sidelining from my NBC/ infectious disease training I was able to spend time in viewing and participating in work on the Army prion research studies. (CDMRP) The amount of funding spent on prion research was around $45,000,000 and was done to protect military personal and families here and in over seas stations. I reviewed a lot of the prion research done on live mule deer and it far exceeded a lot of research done by any state agency or university.I have done more than my share of Buffy Coat test. I still have copies of documents I was able to copy on live blood test showing prions aggregates in the blood stream of deer as far back as 05. I have kept current. I also keep in touch and get updates from two researchers in USDA APHIS in CO regarding testing. I participate in USAHA(united states animal health asso) conference meetings each year. Its something that a couple of these armchair know it alls should attend. I do not see anyone from WRC or the wildlife federation, wildlife society, camo coalition or qdma ever in attendance .

I have been raising deer for 18 years for nutritional research.(outside of NC) I have wanted since 2005 wanted to build a deer research facility here in NC for the sole purpose of further education in whitetails, but when you have biased individules and unqualified staff at wrc (commissioners) making decisions with out have any wildlife mgt backgrounds or captive experience making decisions its a bit frustrating. Especially when in 2012 they talked about wanting to see a operation and I offered them a two day tour at my own expense in either PA Ohio or Alabama and they just ignored the chance to get hands on field tours and ask any questions or review any logs, book or research data. Instead the rely on the single sided info relayed to them. So I hope this has answered or cleared up any questions you have, I will go as far to reach out and if you want to meet up after work sometime I will be happy to share data and let you see the other side of the coin. Again its only through being unbiased and open to others firsthand knowledge can one make informed decisions.
 
Last edited:

BR549

Twelve Pointer
38 Days until Captive License / Permits Expire. Could get interesting come January 1st... Re: Captive Cervids...
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
In the end it doesn't really matter what I think. I have no decision making authority. Have you offered these "tours" to Evan Stanford, David Sawyer, and David Cobb? I have a hard time believing they'd turn you down. I have no doubt that tests are out there, and I believe you that they're making progress. However, in the end they haven't produced a test yet that the USDA has said is at least as accurate and reliable as the current one. This isn't one of those things where you can really say "well, most of them are good...." because it's the one that counts. Yes, I'd rather them be over cautious than let something slip by due to negligence.

As I said earlier, I honestly don't believe Dean Brown was comparing CWD to Ebola, tit for tat. He was simply making a comparison of the potential impact and the potential long-term effects. He actually made the mad-cow comparison (which is more accurate) a couple of sentences later. Context, bud, context. Again, with the "coyote question", it seems that you missed my point. Anyway, have a good night.
 
Last edited:

boatless

Guest
There are two primary methods by which CWD can get to NC: either through natural deer movement or in a trailer being pulled down the highway. One method takes less than a day and we can prevent that through laws and regulations. CWD has hopscotched across the western and northern states, with outbreaks occurring too far apart to be due to natural deer movement. Had other states prevented deer ownership and the associated movement of live deer,CWD would probably still be out west and not a concern for us for many years. Now CWD is as close as Virginia and West Virginia and may eventually get here through natural deer movement. We must delay its arrival as long as possible. Be prepared to fight Mr. West's bill in the upcoming session of the NC General Assembly. At this point we are in control; will we leave CWD for future sportsman to pay for try to stop it now!!
 

BR549

Twelve Pointer
"Horn Porn" & Rep Roger West...

Seventy-nine percent of Americans approve of hunting, according to a 2013 survey by Responsive Management, a Harrisonburg, Va., polling firm. That result comes with a qualifier, though.

“The public does differentiate between hunting in general, sort of traditional hunting in open areas, and hunting in fenced areas,” Executive Director Mark Duda said.

Fair chase accounts for the difference, said Keith Balfourd, spokesman for Boone & Crockett Club, America's oldest hunters group. People tolerate hunting if the animal has a chance to escape, but “canned shoots” don't offer that, he said.

“That's not hunting. That's shopping for deer,” said Jim Willems, president of Pope & Young Club, the nation's largest archery hunting organization.

Both groups condemn such shoots, fearing they erode support for hunting in an era when the public increasingly weighs in on wildlife management at the ballot box.

“Do you think that housewife in Maryland is going to vote in support of hunting if that's what she thinks hunting is?” Balfourd asked.

OTHER ISSUES

Others worry that preserves promote “horn porn” and disease.

Deer farms don't churn out the average buck, said Kip Adams, outreach coordinator for Quality Deer Management Association in Pennsylvania. In the antler arms race, some produce animals with racks so large — two and three times the size of any spotted in the wild — that they struggle to lift their heads, Adams said.

That devalues wild deer, said Brian Murphy, executive director of the group.

“We've gotten to the point in this country where a hunter may shoot a 3-year-old buck that scores 110, and he apologizes because it's not as big as something he's seen on TV. I think that's an absolute shame,” Murphy said.

Chronic wasting disease, meanwhile, is the always-fatal equivalent to mad cow disease in deer. Discovered in Colorado in 1967, it jumped the Mississippi River in 2002 and now is in 22 states, including Pennsylvania, as well as two Canadian provinces.

Some blame deer farming.

“As one biologist recently put it, disease within a deer herd can spread only as far and as fast as a deer can walk,” Willems said. “But now, with all of this interstate movement of deer, disease can travel at 70 miles per hour. It can go all the way across the country in a day.”
 
Last edited:

Wildlifepro51

Guest
In the end it doesn't really matter what I think. I have no decision making authority. Have you offered these "tours" to Evan Stanford, David Sawyer, and David Cobb? I have a hard time believing they'd turn you down. I have no doubt that tests are out there, and I believe you that they're making progress. However, in the end they haven't produced a test yet that the USDA has said is at least as accurate and reliable as the current one. This isn't one of those things where you can really say "well, most of them are good...." because it's the one that counts. Yes, I'd rather them be over cautious than let something slip by due to negligence.

As I said earlier, I honestly don't believe Dean Brown was comparing CWD to Ebola, tit for tat. He was simply making a comparison of the potential impact and the potential long-term effects. He actually made the mad-cow comparison (which is more accurate) a couple of sentences later. Context, bud, context. Again, with the "coyote question", it seems that you missed my point. Anyway, have a good night.

In all honesty everyone in the room in 2012 was invited to attend the tour including Cobb . This was also I believe recorded in the minutes of the meeting. It was offered to them two times and they would not act on it. Even after the first time they thought it would be a good idea to see a operation. The public also does not know about the meeting the commission had in private with a group of deer farmers and reps in Spencer NC In Oct at the old railroad museum. They said they wanted to start a open dialect and talk about things from the past and see about working together and put some of those things in the past and move forward. I see that was just Bravo Sierra now. I guess this will hurt but its the truth, I see Cobb is a very biased individual and several other Commissions agreed with this in a conversation we had in Spencer in OCT. 4 other people were there to back this statement up. It was also brought up in Spencer to John Coley if he remembered my offer two years ago and said yes as well as others in the room. It was also brought up at the public hearing at the wrc office last month at the 7:00 pm hearing for the record. John Coley asked me in the parking lot later was the offer still on the table and I said yes. So yes it was never acted on by the wrc commission to get first hand experience and hands on real time information offered to them. In the end it does matter to me what you think! To many people have been fed misinformation regarding cwd and it needs to be corrected. Again I will state even the director Gordon Meyers and I had a phone conversation and we both agreed that there has been too much misinformation spread regarding the cwd scare. In all honestly if it was as bad as QDMA, PETA, HSUS, Wildlife federation has claimed it is why has there been no mass die offs of our deer and elk herds in the country?? Why has Colorados Elk herd grown by 50% in the past 20 years?? Why the attacks against the deer farms from these groups but the never attack the state agencies that transport animals in state and across state lines without any testing?? I will also share this I have folders with citations attached with reliable live test from University of Co and usda . The word that there is no live testing spread by the media or private conservation groups is again BS, Now they use the word acceptable live test. Quick turn on words . Its research that been moving forward and making great leaps in just a few short years. Its the sound science and research in which good decisions can be made not by people with no experience that only offer opinions. Putting belief in words from folks like the liberal activist and br549 bunch that can only cut and paste and alter words is nothing but non credible.
 
Last edited:

Wildlifepro51

Guest
Seventy-nine percent of Americans approve of hunting, according to a 2013 survey by Responsive Management, a Harrisonburg, Va., polling firm. That result comes with a qualifier, though.

“The public does differentiate between hunting in general, sort of traditional hunting in open areas, and hunting in fenced areas,” Executive Director Mark Duda said.

Fair chase accounts for the difference, said Keith Balfourd, spokesman for Boone & Crockett Club, America's oldest hunters group. People tolerate hunting if the animal has a chance to escape, but “canned shoots” don't offer that, he said.

“That's not hunting. That's shopping for deer,” said Jim Willems, president of Pope & Young Club, the nation's largest archery hunting organization.

Both groups condemn such shoots, fearing they erode support for hunting in an era when the public increasingly weighs in on wildlife management at the ballot box.

“Do you think that housewife in Maryland is going to vote in support of hunting if that's what she thinks hunting is?” Balfourd asked.

OTHER ISSUES

Others worry that preserves promote “horn porn” and disease.

Deer farms don't churn out the average buck, said Kip Adams, outreach coordinator for Quality Deer Management Association in Pennsylvania. In the antler arms race, some produce animals with racks so large — two and three times the size of any spotted in the wild — that they struggle to lift their heads, Adams said.

That devalues wild deer, said Brian Murphy, executive director of the group.

“We've gotten to the point in this country where a hunter may shoot a 3-year-old buck that scores 110, and he apologizes because it's not as big as something he's seen on TV. I think that's an absolute shame,” Murphy said.

Chronic wasting disease, meanwhile, is the always-fatal equivalent to mad cow disease in deer. Discovered in Colorado in 1967, it jumped the Mississippi River in 2002 and now is in 22 states, including Pennsylvania, as well as two Canadian provinces.

Some blame deer farming.

“As one biologist recently put it, disease within a deer herd can spread only as far and as fast as a deer can walk,” Willems said. “But now, with all of this interstate movement of deer, disease can travel at 70 miles per hour. It can go all the way across the country in a day.”

Hey why don't you post Murphys $15,000 fine paid in federal court in Ky along with Mctavish and Ritz (Violation of lacy act) untested parts and chris helms got probation for threating a federal witness. Lets see you post that.
 
Top