Did the NCWRC cornhole us?

Coyotes are eating 80% of fawns ,plus natural death, cars, and hunting,more cars on the road now than a few years ago,EHD, etc. will drop deer numbers,I have noticed a few more deer this year than last but nor=t much, Chatham co. is still in bad shape where I hunt, go figure, less does around the bucks will have to be on there feet more looking, a healthier herd for them instead of having 30 does to every buck, deer still have plenty to eat almost anywhere they live.Bonus tags do not hurt them that much.

smith-n-stokes said:

Where is CRC? I thought he'd be all over this thread...

Been a good read/discussion so far. [emoji106]


Sent from wherever I was at the time.

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Holidays, exiled to visit with family like a good little boy.

Lucky Clucker said:

Coyotes are eating 80% of fawns ,plus natural death, cars, and hunting,more cars on the road now than a few years ago,EHD, etc. will drop deer numbers,I have noticed a few more deer this year than last but nor=t much, Chatham co. is still in bad shape where I hunt, go figure, less does around the bucks will have to be on there feet more looking, a healthier herd for them instead of having 30 does to every buck, deer still have plenty to eat almost anywhere they live.Bonus tags do not hurt them that much.

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We've been over this. Fawn mortality on Ft. Bragg was ~80%. That was TOTAL fawn mortality, NOT coyotes. Yes, coyotes were the major predator and contributed about 1/2 of the deaths, but the 80% figure also included abandonment, malnutrition, bobcats, other predators, vehicles, etc.... If you're going to quote stats please get them right. Otherwise it makes us question any numbers you give us.

^^^^ thank you,,,,,

Deer Killington said:

So if animals destroy a farm crop, do farmers not get to claim that on insurance?

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I say no. If a crop is bad enough for an insurance claim to be filed mother nature has played a big part in it. Most of the time deer are eating part of the profit. Some parts of the state has areas where the deer severely damage crops. I read an article that had pictures showing the damage. One picture showed about about a 10 ft by 10ft area of soybeans wrapped and covered with chicken wire. The protected beans were at least twice as tall as the rest of the field and much more bushy. But even then insurance may not help because the farm yield is based on maybe 7 or 8 years of history with the highest and lowest years discarded. Can't remember exactly but that gives you an idea.
I could shoot deer year round but don't. I do have some deer damage but I don't believe in wasting the meat. I asked a game warden about being able to donate the meat to something like hunters for the hungry or needy families or something and I was told no, just drag them to the edge of the woods. Some fields get more damage than others. But, there may come a time when I feel like I need to.

Rescue44 said:

I say no. If a crop is bad enough for an insurance claim to be filed mother nature has played a big part in it. Most of the time deer are eating part of the profit. Some parts of the state has areas where the deer severely damage crops. I read an article that had pictures showing the damage. One picture showed about about a 10 ft by 10ft area of soybeans wrapped and covered with chicken wire. The protected beans were at least twice as tall as the rest of the field and much more bushy. But even then insurance may not help because the farm yield is based on maybe 7 or 8 years of history with the highest and lowest years discarded. Can't remember exactly but that gives you an idea.
I could shoot deer year round but don't. I do have some deer damage but I don't believe in wasting the meat. I asked a game warden about being able to donate the meat to something like hunters for the hungry or needy families or something and I was told no, just drag them to the edge of the woods. Some fields get more damage than others. But, there may come a time when I feel like I need to.

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They changed the law a few years ago. You can donate the meat now, just have to give the recipient a copy of the dep permit.

7mm-08 said:

I already said it doesn't have to be six tags. But those guys you know that are feeding everyone they know are fixing a short term problem and possibly causing longer term detriment to the future of hunting and the herd.


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I give a lot of meat to non-hunters. Most of whom have never had it and don't even own guns. Let's call them intellectuals for arguments sake. They had no opinion of hunters. Now they understand the benefits and even get their hands dirty processing. I see it as benefitting the future not being a detriment. I have only needed bonus tags one or two seasons but have also used depredation permits as well.

I have seen the cages in pea fields near one hunting spot it amazed me how much higher they grew. The deer liked them so much I put in a decent sized plot. Even dI'd the electric fence deal. The battery died one week and by the weekend it was basically dirt. They mowed down the small plants to nothing. Same field the year before they tried growing pumpkins. The deer were kicking over the mounds to eat the seeds. Never seem anything like it.

gremcat said:

I give a lot of meat to non-hunters. Most of whom have never had it and don't even own guns. Let's call them intellectuals for arguments sake. They had no opinion of hunters. Now they understand the benefits and even get their hands dirty processing. I see it as benefitting the future not being a detriment. I have only needed bonus tags one or two seasons but have also used depredation permits as well.

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That doesn't sound the same as what I was talking about. I give meat away too. Usually in July or August if I have meat in the freezer, I start handing it out. The occasional us of a bonus is not the same as guys going overboard on killing every doe they see.
I'm also not thinking the dep permits are so much of an issue. Many of those deer will get killed weather it's legal or not. That's just the farmer protecting their investment. Not condoning it if it's illegal. Just saying it will likely happen.
Sounds good to me.


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Ldsoldier said:

They changed the law a few years ago. You can donate the meat now, just have to give the recipient a copy of the dep permit.

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I asked the game warden within the last year and I was a little surprised when he told me that it couldn't be donated. He also told me about a farmer who shot some deer and a couple of the employees got the deer and,basically, it would be bad, kinda wrong, if he charged them. Don't want to use his exact words. I strongly believe in game laws but this wasn't poaching. And the animal wasn't wasted. Some laws are in the interest of preservation, safety, etc. but there are times when some laws should be not be followed to a T because following them would be the "wrong", less safe, or the less ethical thing to do.

Rescue44 said:

I asked the game warden within the last year and I was a little surprised when he told me that it couldn't be donated. He also told me about a farmer who shot some deer and a couple of the employees got the deer and,basically, it would be bad, kinda wrong, if he charged them. Don't want to use his exact words. I strongly believe in game laws but this wasn't poaching. And the animal wasn't wasted. Some laws are in the interest of preservation, safety, etc. but there are times when some laws should be not be followed to a T because following them would be the "wrong", less safe, or the less ethical thing to do.

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Unless there was some kind of special circumstance that game warden was mistaken. They changed the rule several years ago. If you kill a deer on a dep permit you can give away the meat. You just have to give the recipient a copy of your dep permit so they can show it to the game warden if he checks them.

Thanks Ld. I'll ask him again and include this information.

Ldsoldier said:

We've been over this. Fawn mortality on Ft. Bragg was ~80%. That was TOTAL fawn mortality, NOT coyotes. Yes, coyotes were the major predator and contributed about 1/2 of the deaths, but the 80% figure also included abandonment, malnutrition, bobcats, other predators, vehicles, etc.... If you're going to quote stats please get them right. Otherwise it makes us question any numbers you give us.

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there is a quote from a ncsu researcher in the whitetail edition of bowhunter magazine , He says; i half quote: (dont have mag with me..)

"Since we cant kill enough coyotes we need to stop killing as many does."

This was presented at the symposium that that magazine covers every tear, southeast deer management deal. teh one that will be in NC next year.

Thought you might know of his work? I know that's not much. to go on. I'll get details if i can find the mag.

Point is they (coyotes) are enough of a factor for NC to consider changes biologically speaking.

Can't kill yotes? Finally figured out how to make attachments with phone. 😊

Rescue44 said:

View attachment 48347
Can't kill yotes? Finally figured out how to make attachments with phone. ��

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you cant kill enough to make a dent is what he was saying.

I changed the post to reflect his thoughts.

7mm-08 said:

I totally get that. Fewer deer isn't bad for us. Disease and yotes will decline with them.


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Fewer deer doesn't necessarily lead to better quality unless deer are able to grow on unhunted property. If hunters continue to shoot for bone instead of letting a buck get some age on him, quality doesn't improve. The quality of deer has never been a number problem as genetics doesn't equate to numbers. The problem has been shooter choices. My concern is that there are areas like those I mentioned that equate to mass slaughter by various sources. When it gets to the point that a pack of good deer dogs can't jump a deer in a half day of hunting, something is wrong. I agree that other areas continue to seemingly thrive.

oldest school said:

you cant kill enough to make a dent is what he was saying.

I changed the post to reflect his thoughts.

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I, too, thought that was his intended point. But still had to add the post. I told the guys I hunt with that if the deer didn't stop eating my soybeans I was going to start importing yotes. Wasn't serious and we still hunt them. A guy who raises cows lost a calf, that was recently born, to what he thinks were yotes. He's about 1.5 miles from me. And another guy lost several young goats. So they are on several peoples hit list. In other states great measures were taken to get rid of the yotes, or reduce the population and much money was spent but over all it wasn't enough.

Rescue44 said:

I, too, thought that was his intended point. But still had to add the post. I told the guys I hunt with that if the deer didn't stop eating my soybeans I was going to start importing yotes. Wasn't serious and we still hunt them. A guy who raises cows lost a calf, that was recently born, to what he thinks were yotes. He's about 1.5 miles from me. And another guy lost several young goats. So they are on several peoples hit list. In other states great measures were taken to get rid of the yotes, or reduce the population and much money was spent but over all it wasn't enough.

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the sad truth is that coyotes did what we hunters couldnt/wouldnt do.,

they thinned the herd. which back before coyotes we all thought was a good idea.

Now that disease and yotes are doing the work, it sucks.

oldest school said:

the sad truth is that coyotes did what we hunters couldnt/wouldnt do.,

they thinned the herd. which back before coyotes we all thought was a good idea.

Now that disease and yotes are doing the work, it sucks.

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This coyote logic still remains a mystery to me. Perhaps I'm just ignorant but I've coyote hunted in no less than a dozen states including Texas and Oklahoma. They had thousands of coyotes long before they showed up here. How is it that the coyote population in NC has significantly affected the herd here but that has not been the case in the western states in the past 50 years? The other mystery is why NCWRC biologists I have talked to tell me scat studies of coyotes in NC contain predominantly meadow vole and small rodent remains while public published studies trend toward deer remains in the scat. Someone is bending the truth somewhere!

Songdoghunter said:

This coyote logic still remains a mystery to me. Perhaps I'm just ignorant but I've coyote hunted in no less than a dozen states including Texas and Oklahoma. They had thousands of coyotes long before they showed up here. How is it that the coyote population in NC has significantly affected the herd here but that has not been the case in the western states in the past 50 years? The other mystery is why NCWRC biologists I have talked to tell me scat studies of coyotes in NC contain predominantly meadow vole and small rodent remains while public published studies trend toward deer remains in the scat. Someone is bending the truth somewhere!

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I'm not 100% it's the coyotes, but from what I understand is that the eastern coyote has more wolf in its DNA than the western making it bigger and more aggressive. The are also better pack hunters. That's just from tv documentaries and reading on the web so take it for what it is. Hearsay. We may also have coyote/red wolves moving across the state soon.

oldest school said:

there is a quote from a ncsu researcher in the whitetail edition of bowhunter magazine , He says; i half quote: (dont have mag with me..)

"Since we cant kill enough coyotes we need to stop killing as many does."

This was presented at the symposium that that magazine covers every tear, southeast deer management deal. teh one that will be in NC next year.

Thought you might know of his work? I know that's not much. to go on. I'll get details if i can find the mag.

Point is they (coyotes) are enough of a factor for NC to consider changes biologically speaking.

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I know Colter and Marcus. I helped out a few times on the study that you're citing. I was there. I've talked with them personally about the results. Pm me your email and I can send you their dissertations. As I said before, they had about 80% fawn mortality. About 50% of fawn mortality was attributed to coyotes. That's a significant number, but it's meaningless if it's misquoted or used out of context.

Yes, we need to look at doe harvests in areas with high coyote populations. That said, we need to establish whether the deer herd is actually in trouble. Many argue that it was overpopulated before the coyotes came anyway. There's some merit to that argument. I think people need to actually manage their herds. That doesn't mean wholesale slaughter of does or only shooting something with X amount of bone. It means looking at what you have and saying "we're gonna shoot X number of does and y number of bucks this year…"

Songdoghunter said:

This coyote logic still remains a mystery to me. Perhaps I'm just ignorant but I've coyote hunted in no less than a dozen states including Texas and Oklahoma. They had thousands of coyotes long before they showed up here. How is it that the coyote population in NC has significantly affected the herd here but that has not been the case in the western states in the past 50 years? The other mystery is why NCWRC biologists I have talked to tell me scat studies of coyotes in NC contain predominantly meadow vole and small rodent remains while public published studies trend toward deer remains in the scat. Someone is bending the truth somewhere!

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There's a lot to it and I don't have time right now, but I'll give a brief synopsis. You have issues with deer adjusting to a new apex predator they haven't seen the likes of in over a century. You have differences in habitat. You have a different style and length of rut, which produces a lengthened fawn drop. Those are the biggies. Maybe I'll have time to elaborate later on.

Who cares what the 'Moo U' people say? What do they know. Now ... what did the unc-ch wildlife folks say? ... oh .. well ... what did their Law and Poly Sci folks say, then?

<chuckle>

Songdoghunter said:

The other mystery is why NCWRC biologists I have talked to tell me scat studies of coyotes in NC contain predominantly meadow vole and small rodent remains while public published studies trend toward deer remains in the scat. Someone is bending the truth somewhere!

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There is also an issue of timing. If you completed a year long scat study, I imagine deer would be a low % of their diet. If you analyzed only the month of May or right during the fawn drop, you might find that deer are a high % of the diet. Similar to deer or other animals, coyotes will adapt their diet to what is readily available during that time of year. So they could still eat primarily rodents and yet cause high fawn mortality in the spring. Those two statements are not exclusive of each other.

^^^ and discarded carcasses in the fall..... why spend the energy to chase one down and kill it when there are many many many leftovers available

Dan Apple said:

^^^ and discarded carcasses in the fall..... why spend the energy to chase one down and kill it when there are many many many leftovers available

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I really didn't think it was that tough to figure out, as most scat I see with deer hair aren't until after season starts

FWIW, fawn mortality can't be anywhere near 80% in our area (or most of NC). I'm not sure what exact conditions contribute to this on Bragg (maybe LDS can help us out on that), but if that were the case long term and statewide, we wouldn't have any deer.

We've got coyotes out the ying-yang and have for a dozen years on our property, and fawns still outnumber the does. There are very few adult does by themselves and many have twins. Logic would dictate that if there were 80% fawn mortality, or even 50%, a large number of does would be without fawns. In addition, if twins were present, usually in close proximity, both would likely fall to predation at the same time. Based on observations of the ratio of does and fawns I would say that total fawn mortality from all causes in our area couldn't be more than 20-30%.

The turkey population has slowly but steadily grown as well. I hear coyotes and turkeys almost every hunt and see them about half of my hunts.

We discuss this every year, but if coyotes were really as bad as hunters like to say, our population would have tanked by now with the increased harvest pressure and other sources of mortality.

Car collisions aren't as bad as hunters say either. Comments like "cars kill as many deer as hunters do" just aren't true. In 2013, the NCDOT reported 20,308 animal related accidents of which about 90% were from deer = 18,277. That's every time a deer causes an accident regardless of whether the deer was actually killed or even struck, but let's just assume all 18,000+ are dead deer. The reported hunter harvest for 2013 was 188,130. Over 10 times as much! Now, I have second-hand information that the WRC estimates 50% of all deer killed are not checked in. So go ahead and double that number - 376,260 hunter killed deer. Now add in the farmers' depredation shooting (big "?" here). The picture begins to become clear - the killers are us. We love to blame the coyotes, cars, and periodic outbreaks of EHD (which can be bad, though localized and infrequent), but the heavy hitters, by the numbers, are the guys with guns.

Let's stop perpetuating myths and use facts to form our opinions. Every time someone blames a source of mortality incorrectly as the cause of deer decline, the truth gets buried even deeper under a mountain of myths. Now, I'm not saying we have a problem. I don't think we have a widespread deer decline. But every location is different. However, IF you think there is a problem, then we don't need to look past the end of our gun barrel to see what the biggest source of deer mortality is.

Ldsoldier said:

I know Colter and Marcus. I helped out a few times on the study that you're citing. I was there. I've talked with them personally about the results. Pm me your email and I can send you their dissertations. As I said before, they had about 80% fawn mortality. About 50% of fawn mortality was attributed to coyotes. That's a significant number, but it's meaningless if it's misquoted or used out of context.

Yes, we need to look at doe harvests in areas with high coyote populations. That said, we need to establish whether the deer herd is actually in trouble. Many argue that it was overpopulated before the coyotes came anyway. There's some merit to that argument. I think people need to actually manage their herds. That doesn't mean wholesale slaughter of does or only shooting something with X amount of bone. It means looking at what you have and saying "we're gonna shoot X number of does and y number of bucks this year&#8230;"

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I have found it and read it. Thanks though.

Good Luck on establishing if the deer herd is actually in trouble.

That would be great but even in stressed situations like last year the ncwrc is reluctant to state the herd is in trouble.

We just had too many acorns. LOL.

The folks I was referring to take the position that with the abundance of farm dead holes, especially turkey and chicken farms in the east and the general availability of roadkill year round from one animal or the other, coyotes don't need or have the desire to kill for food. There's no question they eat some fawns or kill some sick or weak adult deer. I'd put money on a bet that the deer herd numbers would explode if a 1 buck no doe season was implemented for about 5 years.

I've had a game cam on gut pile for two months and except for one lone coywolf who investigated but didnt eat off a fresh kill (remains), I dont thnk their first choice is for carion, at least not on this large track of property in Central NC.

You let someone wound a deer, and all heck breaks loose and you hear how many are in the pack.

I heard them pack hunting from my house in the city limits of N. Raleigh...doing a number on the local semi tame neighborhood deer herd, but they have moved on now.

I think they like to hunt and kill...and eat fresh....imo