What is considered a "good Christian"

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
God is love, that's pretty plain, too. Jesus Christ embodies everything the father is, but he is not him. Only a fool, or an idiot, would make the leap of logic that he is

I always thought John 1:1 was obvious. Almost repetitive. But as I read your statement, I realize that John was saying much more than I thought he was.

Let's start with a simple understanding that "The Word" is referring to Jesus. I think you will agree with me on that. Now that that is settled, then we can go on to the next part: "In the beginning". That is, before creation. As far back as you go, "The Word" was there. So he was there in the beginning. "The Word was with God". This part is very important concerning your "God is Love" statement. WITH God indicates he is distinct from God. Clearly "The Word" is not just an attribute of God, He is distinctly separate from God. "The Word was God". Very simple, and exactly what it sounds like. The Word was, from the beginning, God. So he is clearly distinct from God in one way and yet he IS God - that is, he embodies all the character of God.

You can call it whatever you want to (since "Trinity" seems to be a dirty word), but John is concisely saying that "The Word" was before all things, he is distinct from God, and yet he IS God. If that wasn't clear enough, you can jump down to verse 18, where it is repeated:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

That doesn't sound to me like a "leap of logic". It sounds to like John makes it painstakingly clear. He repeats himself. Several times.

Now, as plainly as that truth is stated, you've solidified in your mind that Jesus is NOT God. So, instead of calling names (fool, idiot, judgmental, "biggest lie ever", etc.) why don't you tell us who Jesus really is, according to you? I know who John says he is. Who do you say he is?
 
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NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
What text version of The Bible do you think is the most accurate translation for someone looking to dive in and start reading?

I prefer the English Standard Version and I know a lot of people like the New International Version. I've read the entire New Testament in the KJV, before I began studying the Word of God. I've read the entire ESV, but only once. Just finished Psalms, don't know if I'll start in Genesis and read it all the way through again.
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
I always thought John 1:1 was obvious. Almost repetitive. But as I read your statement, I realize that John was saying much more than I thought he was.

Let's start with a simple understanding that "The Word" is referring to Jesus. I think you will agree with me on that.

I disagree. The Word is Logos, God's Word which he wrote in the heavens. Are you saying the 12 constellations are Jesus? No. God's Word makes known Jesus, who makes known the Father. That is Bible 101.

Let's see where you go from here, but no, "The Word" tells of Jesus, but is not he. I will accept that you're sincere in what you believe, and I respect that.

Now that that is settled, then we can go on to the next part: "In the beginning". That is, before creation. As far back as you go, "The Word" was there. So he was there in the beginning. "The Word was with God". This part is very important concerning your "God is Love" statement. WITH God indicates he is distinct from God. Clearly "The Word" is not just an attribute of God, He is distinctly separate from God. "The Word was God". Very simple, and exactly what it sounds like. The Word was, from the beginning, God. So he is clearly distinct from God in one way and yet he IS God - that is, he embodies all the character of God.

Here is where we start to get into trouble. One is your definition of logos, which is the thoughts and ideas expressed. The Word IS God, in that it defines Jesus and makes known himself. The Word is God's plan for mankind, plain and simple. I think you've taken John 1 and defined it in terms of your theology, instead of letting the Word of God speak for itself, which needs no interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20

You can call it whatever you want to (since "Trinity" seems to be a dirty word), but John is concisely saying that "The Word" was before all things, he is distinct from God, and yet he IS God. If that wasn't clear enough, you can jump down to verse 18, where it is repeated:

I'll call it a lie. But, I'll agree with your assertion, the Word was with God, and the Word is God, insomuch as you are your word, your bond. That God has a plan that he has revealed in his word.

That doesn't sound to me like a "leap of logic". It sounds to like John makes it painstakingly clear. He repeats himself. Several times.

Correct, we just differ on the use of the word, logos. Verse 2, begins with a reference to Jesus Christ. So, Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning, and so were we all, in the foreknowledge of God. We were with God from before the foundation of the world, are we God? No, and neither is Jesus Christ. We existed with God in his foreknowledge, that's how he knew us. So, Jesus, too was with God, and by him, Jesus, God's plan of salvation for all men, where all things made. The scripture here is really quite beautiful, it's only a shame to have it queered and twisted by those who would use the word of god deceptively.

Now, as plainly as that truth is stated, you've solidified in your mind that Jesus is NOT God. So, instead of calling names (fool, idiot, judgmental, "biggest lie ever", etc.) why don't you tell us who Jesus really is, according to you? I know who John says he is. Who do you say he is?

I'll say what the word of God says he is, he is the Son of God. If you can find "God the Son" in your bible, you're looking at a mis-translation, because it isn't in there. Even Matthew 28:19 is a trinitarian forgery, because you have have to get it in there somehow. It's a shame, too, all things considered.

You literally have to turn scripture on it's head to support this false doctrine of the trinity. If you still want to say the Word in John 1 is referring to Jesus, who am I to stand in your way? I think it's self explanatory, the Word is simply that, the thoughts and ideas expressed therein, that Jesus Christ is the embodiment of his, God's Word. To view it any differently is deceptive, and a lie.

I'm actually thankful you brought this up, as it's used in support of the false doctrine of the trinity quite often, and this exercise has helped solidify in my own mind exactly what God is saying to us, which is, after all, what's important, and not some theology or doctrine of man.

God be with us all.
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
When I hear some of these ludicrous interpretations of what the Bible says, I'm reminded of something Patrick Moynihan once said, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." That's a pretty profound statement to originate from a politician, by the way.

If someone chooses to "believe" Jesus is not God, that is certainly their prerogative, but the evidence for the Triune nature of God is not debatable .... at least not intelligently.

Yeah, still looking for that word, "triune" in my bible. You know what? It's not there. Psst, there's no easter bunny, either. Is that intelligent enough for you?

The ludicrous interpretations came about in the 3rd century AD, and not without controversy.
 
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Triggermortis

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Yeah, still looking for that word, "triune" in my bible. You know what? It's not there. Psst, there's no easter bunny, either. Is that intelligent enough for you?

The ludicrous interpretations came about in the 3rd century AD, and not without controversy.

So if Jesus is not God, and Jesus died for sins, then how are you saved? Elaborate that carefully for us. Point by point.
 

Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
For those that think the trinity does not make sense, and defies logic, God has presented us with the perfect example of how it can and does make sense. I always explain the trinity with water. Water has 3 distinct states of being, yet is the same exact substance in all three states: Water, Ice and Vapor. God also has 3 states. Father (God), Son, (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Yeah, still looking for that word, "triune" in my bible. You know what? It's not there. Psst, there's no easter bunny, either. Is that intelligent enough for you?

The ludicrous interpretations came about in the 3rd century AD, and not without controversy.

Your arguments remind me of conversations I've had with many followers of other false religions - they've memorized the playbook (false doctrine) without understanding very much of what they're asserting. They too have little desire to know the truth and there is nothing to intelligently discuss until they resolve the obvious contradictions between what the Bible says (in its composite whole) and what they've chosen to believe based on their interpretation of some selected verses.

You must use the Bible to interpret the Bible, and all false doctrines fall apart when held to this standard of interpretation.

Anyhow, since flawed premises will always lead to false conclusions, I'm afraid you've set yourself up for failure.

This Einstein quote has many applications: "Any fool can know. The point is to understand."
 
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sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I disagree. The Word is Logos, God's Word which he wrote in the heavens... God's Word makes known Jesus, who makes known the Father.

You could have saved us both a bunch of typing and time, if you would have just said John 1:1 (in your understanding) doesn't refer to Jesus.

Does vs. 18 ("the one and only son, who is himself God...") refer to Jesus?
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
For those that think the trinity does not make sense, and defies logic, God has presented us with the perfect example of how it can and does make sense. I always explain the trinity with water. Water has 3 distinct states of being, yet is the same exact substance in all three states: Water, Ice and Vapor. God also has 3 states. Father (God), Son, (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.

Since I used an anecdotal example of how your child is not you, then fair enough that you can use one as well. I just don't see the state of water used in the bible whatsoever, whereas I do so familial relationships.

God set up natural and spiritual law, I just don't think your analogy holds any water, pun intended.

Maybe the false doctrine of the trinity was too important to put in the bible, no wait, that's Islam. Nevermind.
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
Your arguments remind me of conversations I've had with many followers of other false religions - they've memorized the playbook (false doctrine) without understanding very much of what they're asserting. They too have little desire to know the truth and there is nothing to intelligently discuss until they resolve the obvious contradictions between what the Bible says (in its composite whole) and what they've chosen to believe based on their interpretation of some selected verses.

You must use the Bible to interpret the Bible, and all false doctrines fall apart when held to this standard of interpretation.

Anyhow, since flawed premises will always lead to false conclusions, I'm afraid you've set yourself up for failure.

This Einstein quote has many applications: "Any fool can know. The point is to understand."

Hmm, I'll accept your non-committal response as having asserted nothing for which you might be called upon to substantiate scripturally. The "false religion", if you will, is the false doctrine of the trinity. However, I accept there is a non-majority who hold fast to the doctrine, because that's what you've been taught. That in and of itself is no guarantee for the truth, neither is your personal opinion.
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
You could have saved us both a bunch of typing and time, if you would have just said John 1:1 (in your understanding) doesn't refer to Jesus.

Does vs. 18 ("the one and only son, who is himself God...") refer to Jesus?

That's a good one, and to be perfectly honest, I wasn't sure what i was going to find. Here it is, from the English Standard Version (ESV)

"No one has ever seen God; the only God[5], who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." (John 1:18 ESV)

[5] 1:18 Or the only One, who is God; some manuscripts the only Son

So you see, and this is where you have to be careful, there is a footnote and an alternate rendering, which is most likely the correct one, because it makes perfectly good sense, to read it as,

"No one has ever seen God; the only <sic>Son, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." (John 1:18 ESV)

God didn't set himself at his own right hand. No, it is his only begotten Son, Jesus the Christ, whom he raised from the dead and set at his own right hand. By the same token there are fools who would say a person isn't saved unless they believe the doctrine of the trinity, one could say, you can't be saved if you believe it. However, Romans 10:9 and 10 says,

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." (Romans 10:9-10 ESV)

It doesn't say, confess Jesus is God, it says confess Jesus is Lord! God didn't raise himself from the dead, either, as long as we're on the subject. Man has been deceived by this false doctrine long enough.

"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

“Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities."

(Revelation 18:4-5 ESV)

There are those who say the subject of this passage is the Holy Roman Church. I've got news for you, there's very little difference doctrinally between the whore of Babylon, and any of the mainstream christian denominations. So, I will say as it is written, the leaders of the synagogue of Jesus' day were of their father the devil. There's nothing to suggest things today would be any different. Above the congregational level, it's all politics, as anyone can tell you. I've been done with the worship of the Sun god, the observance of the winter solstice as Christ's Mass, and the fertility rites of Spring. Yes, Jesus was crucified at the commencement of the Passover Feast in Jerusalem, but it sure wasn't on a Friday, it was on a Wednesday, so that 3 days and 3 nights later, after Christ rose sometime before sunset on Saturday, Mary and the other women found the tomb opened early on the first day of the week, Sunday, before daylight.

If the church can't even get it right concerning which day of the week Jesus was crucified, or when he was born, September 11, 3 BCE, yes that's right, the birthday of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is September 11, but that's another study, then why in God's name does anyone think they can get anything right? Yes, men are fallible, but God and His Word are infallible, and I'll stake my life and the life of my family on the truth of God's Word, his alone, and on the work which God wrought on this Earth in the accomplishment of His Son, Jesus Christ, a living sacrifice and a sacrifice for all, that all who should believe in him should not perish but have eternal life, world without end. Amen.

You can keep your false doctrine of the trinity and the horse it rode in on.

God be with us all.
 

Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Since I used an anecdotal example of how your child is not you, then fair enough that you can use one as well. I just don't see the state of water used in the bible whatsoever, whereas I do so familial relationships.

God set up natural and spiritual law, I just don't think your analogy holds any water, pun intended.

Maybe the false doctrine of the trinity was too important to put in the bible, no wait, that's Islam. Nevermind.

I think it holds the "living water" pretty well, though.

The Bible often tells WHAT happened...but rarely HOW it happened. That is why folks continually argue about science vs. the Bible. They are arguing apples and oranges. WHAT vs. HOW.
God is concerned with us knowing WHAT happened and that He did it. The HOW is unimportant to Him. He leaves that for us to sometimes figure out in due time...and sometimes He leaves a clue here and there. For instance.

In the Genesis creation story, the word "us" is used a few times. As in &#8220;Let us make mankind in our image...". Who is the "US" being refered to?
In other scriptures, it basically states that Jesus was there with God from the beginning. You are correct that there is nothing call the "trinity" mentioned in the Bible...but each entity is present and mentioned. And, I don't think God is in the business of leaving false trails that would easily lead folks away from Him.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
In the Genesis creation story, the word "us" is used a few times. As in &#8220;Let us make mankind in our image...". Who is the "US" being refered to?
In other scriptures, it basically states that Jesus was there with God from the beginning. You are correct that there is nothing call the "trinity" mentioned in the Bible...but each entity is present and mentioned. And, I don't think God is in the business of leaving false trails that would easily lead folks away from Him.

That's why I'm not concerned with the word "Trinity" and whether it is or is not in the Bible. It's not the word, but the concept that is important. And that concept, is built much like a puzzle. Those who don't believe in it, like to say that we use the entire picture to fill in the gaps, when in reality, it is the many individual pieces that show the final picture. Genesis 1 and John 1 clearly show all three were there in the beginning.

Jesus himself claims to be God several times in scripture, and several more times the writers of the NT say the same. It is really a key concept of salvation. There's no grand delusion, no apostasy, no "greatest lie ever" here. Just the words of scripture spelled out in black and white. Let the reader, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, make up his own mind.
 

Triggermortis

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
That's why I'm not concerned with the word "Trinity" and whether it is or is not in the Bible. It's not the word, but the concept that is important. And that concept, is built much like a puzzle. Those who don't believe in it, like to say that we use the entire picture to fill in the gaps, when in reality, it is the many individual pieces that show the final picture. Genesis 1 and John 1 clearly show all three were there in the beginning.

Jesus himself claims to be God several times in scripture, and several more times the writers of the NT say the same. It is really a key concept of salvation. There's no grand delusion, no apostasy, no "greatest lie ever" here. Just the words of scripture spelled out in black and white. Let the reader, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, make up his own mind.
'
Exactly.

The Bible states very clearly that God does not share His glory with another. Yet, over and over again in the NT it is perspicuous to an intelligent reader that Jesus is worthy of all the glory that can be given Him. We could fill this thread with many proofs of the deity of Christ and still not persuade someone who does not want to listen.
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
I think it holds the "living water" pretty well, though.

The Bible often tells WHAT happened...but rarely HOW it happened. That is why folks continually argue about science vs. the Bible. They are arguing apples and oranges. WHAT vs. HOW.
God is concerned with us knowing WHAT happened and that He did it. The HOW is unimportant to Him. He leaves that for us to sometimes figure out in due time...and sometimes He leaves a clue here and there. For instance.

In the Genesis creation story, the word "us" is used a few times. As in &#8220;Let us make mankind in our image...". Who is the "US" being refered to?
In other scriptures, it basically states that Jesus was there with God from the beginning. You are correct that there is nothing call the "trinity" mentioned in the Bible...but each entity is present and mentioned. And, I don't think God is in the business of leaving false trails that would easily lead folks away from Him.

Thanks for sharing your "thoughts". "Us" is collectively the royal "we". You're right, i'm correct there is nothing called the "trinity" in the Bible, and each is mentioned. There is God Almighty, there is holy spirit, which is what God is, he is holy and he is spirit. The bible also mentions the spirit of Christ, which was poured out on the day of Pentecost, and resides within every person born again of God's spirit. Then there is the spirit of man. These 3 uses of the word spirit. There may be others. Then there is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Not once is he described as God the Son, sorry, it's not in there. Jesus Christ is part of what God creation. To worship Jesus as God is both idolatrous and blasphemous, and is the greatest source of weakness in the church today. Seventeen hundred years is a long time to perpetuate a lie, wouldn't you agree?

Leaving false trails is what men do. And unfortunately, the doctrine of the trinity is man's doctrine.
 
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NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
'
Exactly.

The Bible states very clearly that God does not share His glory with another. Yet, over and over again in the NT it is perspicuous to an intelligent reader that Jesus is worthy of all the glory that can be given Him. We could fill this thread with many proofs of the deity of Christ and still not persuade someone who does not want to listen.

The diety of Christ, meaning Christ is God? Faith comes by believing, so I suppose you're referring to mathematical proofs. I don't think you can, and regardless, that's an argument I will win every time, mathematically and otherwise, because I have the word of God on my side. Anyone can twist the scripture to say anything they like. The Pentecosts are masters at it, but the crown jewels belong to the Roman Catholic church.

The pope is infallible, did you know that? Protestantism puts church doctrine above the Word of God. Did you know that? Where is the Church, the body of Christ, which puts God's Word first, and let's it speak for itself, not following after the doctrines of men, but after the heart of God?
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
Sounds like you need to expand your systematic theology. You only provided the period on the end of the paragraph. Let's understand more, beginning at the protoevangelion.

Is that what it sounds like? Protoevangelion, that's a new one, first telling. Let's see, Genesis 3:15 is the first mention of Christ in the scripture. James is also mentioned in a quick internet search. Thankfully, it's a short book.

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings." (James 1:1 ESV)

It's written to the Jews, so it's for our learning. Was there anything in particular you wanted to point out?


This is the same group which couldn't figure out that the church is the body of christ, and the nation of Israel is the bride, right? Anyone still think the church is the bride? I can look that thread up, if anyone needs a refresher. Why are we debating this topic, the Word of God is the final arbiter, not some theologian sitting in an ivory tower, or some street corner preacher. The word of God is all in all, needs no one to interpret it, for it interprets itself. Scripture makes known Christ, who makes known God. Christ is the word incarnate, made flesh. Who did the making, well, there's only one possibility, and that is God. Or, did God make himself. I'm just not going to get into the silliness of that discussion, although it may already be too late for that. If anyone still wants to pursue this foolishness, have at it, I'm not going anywhere, at least not of my own volition. I would hope the moderators will allow the discussion to continue. I've been kicked off of Christian boards(http://www.raptureforums.com/), one in particular for not believing what the forum owner believed. That's his privilege, just as it's his privilege to be wrong.

I've been discussing this topic and other spiritual matters in public forums longer than most. When it comes to athiests, sodomites, and trinitarians, the only thing I have to say is "pass the ammunition."
 
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NCGunDude

Eight Pointer
You first, what do you call yours? You're a trinitarian, that much is clear. Which denomination do you put above the word of god?
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I don't identify with any particular denomination. Please indulge me by answering my question.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Well this has been interesting. I just spent an hour reading every post on this thread. Wish I had seen it sooner. I have been away from the forum for a while. I don't want to reignite any arguments. I think it is very interesting to see different views of scripture. I do have to say that while it is clear we are not the same religion, and the way I would have approached the subject would have been different, I agree with the majority of NCGunDude's comments regarding mainstream Christianity and the trinity doctrine.

To the OP: It is important to do more than simply live a Christian life without involvement with a "church". Hebrews 10:25 tells us this. It is important to associate regularly with others who share your faith. It is often those relationships that help the most when we face challenges. God intended for us to rely on others, and in turn offer assistance to others when they need it. Seeing others demonstrate their faith serves to strengthen our own as well. Unfortunately, finding a place that teaches the truth from the bible can be very difficult. Teaching from the Bible is what is important, not teaching from tradition. it is many of those "traditional" doctrinal teachings that leave people feeling unsatisfied with their church and leaving with more questions than answers. John 17:17 says "your word is truth." So if you stick to what the Bible truly teaches, you can't go wrong.
 
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