Need some advice regarding church disciplibe

Ashley and I are members at a church that is big on church discipline, however I've never had to practice it personally....long story short I got a friend who goes to church with us (is a member along with his wife) however they have fallen off the wagon and both are drinking and just now learned that they will be having a couple move in with them who aren't married...has anyone had experience practicing church discipline?

Also our church covenant states no alcohol....

forgive me for being so blunt, but how is what they do any of your business?

Oh..... I want to open my mouth about that response soooooo badly but I do know better.

EG...... I could give you some information from my experiences but it is obvious that this is not the place to do that. Obviously, there are those who have no idea what you are talking about nor dealing with and you search for help and guidance will just turn into one of the worse threads of all time. Hopefully, one of the older people in your church who have been there for some time and understand the churches principals and practices will be able to give you some understanding. Good luck.

Colekira said:

forgive me for being so blunt, but how is what they do any of your business?

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Read Matthew 18

EGrdneck said:

Read Matthew 18

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Best place to start. Although you referenced your church covenant, that will be secondary to the issues of the heart, and the ultimate end of discipline is restoration. And, with multiple counselors there is wisdom.
And on this forum, you might get a lot of opinion and fall short on the wisdom.

What makes it hard is him being a good friend...we are on the same fire dept. We hunt together, fish together, go out to eat as families....the hard part is not letting my friendship with him get in the way of what christ calls us to do....

You must make sure you do it in a manner that shows you are doing it out of love and concern, not condemnation.

This is interesting to me. By drinking, do you mean raging alcoholics or they have beer in their fridge? Growing up Southern Baptist I have never heard of anyone being kicked out of a church for drinking. To me drinking alcohol isn't the problem, its the behavior of people that take it too far.

I am not sure exactly how things are in your church, but where I attend I would address the matter the way the scriptures advise us to. First you must determine if you believe that a sin is being committed that brings reproach on god's standards, the congregation, your family, or the individual, or if it is simply a matter of conscience that isn't necessarily scripturally wrong. if it is determined that a sin is being committed that cannot be ignored, the bible instructs us (in Matthew 18, as EGrdneck mentioned) to first go to our brother and speak with him privately. if within a reasonable time no action has been taken, one can try again with one or two others present. If there is still no indication of repentance or corrective action, the bible says to bring the matter to the congregation elders. Once that is done you...or whoever else can have a clean conscience knowing they have done everything they can.

I was raised Baptist in South Florida but no one ever cared about drinking from time to time. What is the deal up here? We attended a Baptist church for a while and whenever someone in our Sunday school would host a function they would hide all the alcohol. You might stumble on it if you were talking to the host in the Kitchen and they were looking for it. I'm not sure what is wrong scripturally with having a drink from time to time. Anyone have any insight?

What is the deal with the unmarried couple? Are they helping them out or renting a room?

GSOHunter said:

I was raised Baptist in South Florida but no one ever cared about drinking from time to time. What is the deal up here? We attended a Baptist church for a while and whenever someone in our Sunday school would host a function they would hide all the alcohol. You might stumble on it if you were talking to the host in the Kitchen and they were looking for it. I'm not sure what is wrong scripturally with having a drink from time to time. Anyone have any insight?

What is the deal with the unmarried couple? Are they helping them out or renting a room?

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The scriptures don't condemn alcohol as a whole. Jesus warned against becoming "enslaved to A LOT of wine." he also turned water into wine on more than one occasion. It's drunkenness that is condemned, not the drink itself. Saying alcohol should not be allowed because of the potential for drunkenness is just like saying guns shouldn't be allowed because of the potential for misuse by a few idiots.

badlandbucks said:

The scriptures don't condemn alcohol as a whole. Jesus warned against becoming "enslaved to A LOT of wine." he also turned water into wine on more than one occasion. It's drunkenness that is condemned, not the drink itself. Saying alcohol should not be allowed because of the potential for drunkenness is just like saying guns shouldn't be allowed because of the potential for misuse by a few idiots.

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That's what I had thought. One preacher even told me the wine that Jesus drank was just grape juice by today's standards....

There's nothing wrong with using those instructions I suppose, but Matthew Chapter 18 deals with "personal" offenses or trespasses between members of the church body, not how to deal with act(s) of immorality (or drunkenness) by an individual church member that reflect poorly on the church body.

Perhaps guidance from I Corinthians Chapter 5 would be more appropriate, in the spirit of Galatians 6:1.

The scriptures do not speak against drinking. They DO speak against drunkenness. The deal here in the Bible Belt about alcohol is a denominational doctrine of abstinence, which is not biblical, per se. I believe it most likely comes from the scripture speaking about not being a stumbling block to the young in faith.

Let's all grab a beer and discuss this more fully......

What chuch?

Soilman said:

The scriptures do not speak against drinking. They DO speak against drunkenness. The deal here in the Bible Belt about alcohol is a denominational doctrine of abstinence, which is not biblical, per se. I believe it most likely comes from the scripture speaking about not being a stumbling block to the young in faith.

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This is how my brother explained it to me.......he does not judge me (or his wife) for drinking, but chooses not to himself to set a good example for the younger adult church members, who might not need to complicate their lives with even social drinking.

Off topic...but some of the best conversations regarding Jesus, the Bible, and saved souls have occurred after quite a few. Honesty has a way of peeking out...both good and bad. You can learn a lot about who a person is or what they are made of when they are a few drinks deep.

ive never understood if the Bible was against getting drunk, becoming a drunk, or making a fool of oneself when alcohol is involved and doing immoral acts uncontrollably as an effect. It may pertain to all three.

Ive seen happy and grown adults in tears after a few drinks showing how they really feel.

pattersonj11 said:

Off topic...but some of the best conversations regarding Jesus, the Bible, and saved souls have occurred after quite a few. Honesty has a way of peeking out...both good and bad. You can learn a lot about who a person is or what they are made of when they are a few drinks deep.

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I guess that is a matter of how you define "best conversations." None of my best conversations have come after "quite a few" or even a couple. If I had to guess, I would think Jesus would want you talking from your heart and soul, not your bottle. When people develop a strong relationship with Christ, they will gladly open up without any need of liquid courage.

Im talking about conversations that reveal a man/woman for who they are. The conversations that reveal who has deeper character and those that are shallow. I'm a born again Christian and know what it means. I've been around many other "Christians" who are low life scum when no one important is looking. The same ones that witness to anyone they can and then bed down with someone other than their husband/wife when no one is watching. Others that hold their tongue when it's time to speak out.

Judgement is by One and only.

Too many people are forgetting that in order to convert sinners, you have to find the sinners. Holding an Invitation at the end of a service is no different than one held in a backyard or on the tailgate.

pattersonj11 said:

Im talking about conversations that reveal a man/woman for who they are. The conversations that reveal who has deeper character and those that are shallow. I'm a born again Christian and know what it means. I've been around many other "Christians" who are low life scum when no one important is looking. The same ones that witness to anyone they can and then bed down with someone other than their husband/wife when no one is watching. Others that hold their tongue when it's time to speak out.

Judgement is by One and only.

Too many people are forgetting that in order to convert sinners, you have to find the sinners. Holding an Invitation at the end of a service is no different than one held in a backyard or on the tailgate.

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I get what you are saying. sitting around with a few good friends enjoying a few beers tends to bring out the philosophical side of some people.

Also off topic...you mentioned you are a born again Christian....What exactly is that?

Born again speaks to the spiritual birth occuring when Jesus enters your life. It occurs when someone accepts Jesus as their savior.

pattersonj11 said:

Born again speaks to the spiritual birth occuring when Jesus enters your life. It occurs when someone accepts Jesus as their savior.

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ohh ok...gotcha. So if a person is born again, but commits serious sins later (murder, adultery, etc) are they still born again Christians? I'm sincerely asking...I am not familiar with the term.

badlandbucks said:

ohh ok...gotcha. So if a person is born again, but commits serious sins later (murder, adultery, etc) are they still born again Christians? I'm sincerely asking...I am not familiar with the term.

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Serious sins huh.... as opposed to non serious ones? If there is nothing you can do to earn salvation, what then could you do to lose it?

TriggerMortis gave you some short and sweet wisdom.

Many denominations (perhaps most) have rules that are not backed by scripture, or are taken out of context. The Catholics require priests to be unmarried and celibate, many Baptists think that all alcohol is forbidden, and so forth.

Take a look at your friend's behavior and also your own. Make sure the beam is out of your own eye before you seek to remove his speck. Maybe there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for all of his actions.

Crappie_Hunter said:

Serious sins huh.... as opposed to non serious ones? If there is nothing you can do to earn salvation, what then could you do to lose it?

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Well that is really two different questions. It is true we cannot "earn" salvation. Romans 3:23,24 and Ephesians 1:7 remind us that the kindness we receive from God by means of Jesus' ransom is undeserved. But that doesn't mean we can't lose God's favor. The Bible warns against serious sins that will keep a person from entering God’s Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21) If salvation could not be lost, such warnings would be meaningless. Instead, the Bible shows that someone who has been saved can fall away by returning to a practice of serious sin. For example, Hebrews 10:26 states: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.” (Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22). Jesus emphasized the importance of maintaining faith by giving an illustration in which he likened himself to a vine and his followers to branches on that vine. Some of them would at one time demonstrate faith in him by their fruits, or actions, yet would later fail to do so and be “thrown out like a [fruitless] branch,” losing their salvation. (John 15:1-6) The apostle Paul used a similar illustration, saying that Christians who do not maintain their faith “will be lopped off.” (Romans 11:17-22). Christians are commanded to “keep on the watch.” (Matthew 24:42; 25:13) Those who fall asleep spiritually, whether by practicing “works belonging to darkness” or by not fully performing the works that Jesus commanded, lose their salvation.(Romans 13:11-13; Revelation 3:1-3). Many scriptures show that those who have been saved must still endure faithfully to the end. (Matthew 24:13; Hebrews 10:36; 12:2, 3; Revelation 2:10) First-century Christians expressed joy when they learned that fellow believers were enduring in their faith. (1 Thessalonians 1:2, 3; 3 John 3, 4) Does it seem reasonable that the Bible would stress faithful endurance if those who did not endure would be saved anyway? Only when his death was imminent did the apostle Paul feel that his salvation was assured. (2 Timothy 4:6-8) Earlier in his life, he recognized that he could still miss out on salvation if he gave in to fleshly desires. He wrote: “I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”(1 Corinthians 9:27; Philippians 3:12-14).

If we only surround ourselves with perfect Christians then we find ourselves alone. If we are direct about not accepting unchristian behavior in our presence but accepting of the person then aren't we bring true Christians?

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So let me make sure I got this straight badlandbucks... God tells me if I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior my sins are forgiven and I get to spend eternity in his glory.... unless I sin again, at which time I will lose his favor and be condemned to hell? Did I get that right? So Jesus only died for the sins I committed BEFORE I accepted him.... after that it's all on me huh.

Crappie_Hunter said:

So let me make sure I got this straight badlandbucks... God tells me if I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior my sins are forgiven and I get to spend eternity in his glory.... unless I sin again, at which time I will lose his favor and be condemned to hell? Did I get that right? So Jesus only died for the sins I committed BEFORE I accepted him.... after that it's all on me huh.

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No that isn't it at all. UNREPENTANT sinners are what is being spoken of. We all fall short of God's glory every day. God knows and even expects this. At Romans 7:18, Paul said "I have the desire to do what is fine, but not the ability to carry it out." It isn't the sins that disqualify a person, it is their "Dominant mental attitude" (Eph 4:22-24). If a person tries their best to live a Christian life, and occasionally sins, even seriously, but recognizes it, and tries to correct their thinking and actions in the future, that is all God expects of us. But if a person accepts Jesus as his savior, and then goes on to lead a life contrary to bible principles (fornication, violence, greed, etc) with no remorse or conscience for their actions, after knowing that such things are wrong, those are the people being referred to. Mathew 7:21 makes it very clear that not all who profess to be Christians will inherit God's kingdom. If that is true, then it must be possible to lose salvation...right? If everyone who professes to believe in Christ was in fact "saved" then that scripture would have no meaning.