Need some advice regarding church disciplibe

Crappie_Hunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. I believe that if somebody truly believes in their heart that Jesus died for their sins, God raised him from the dead, and they accept him as their savior, there is nothing they can do to change where they spend eternity. I believe obviously there are rewards in heaven based on your life here on earth so certainly someone who led a "better" life may have a different experience in Heaven but both people in this example still get in. If we all fall short of the glory of God, and the only way we get in is through his Grace then how can there be some "line in the sand" that if you cross it well too bad you're gone! Also please tell me where that line is I would like to know. If Jesus told a career criminal, who in his own words was being justly punished on the cross, that he would spend eternity with him, then where is there any limits to His grace?
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
When a person has conviction from the Holy Spirit, rejects their former life as a sinner and invites Christ to take a place in their hearts, and replaces the carnal self with a sanctified self. Then a person can't live a life as you describe without convictions.
A man always has a sin nature, that's the way we are from birth through the sin of Adam. But Christ died for the sins of the world, not just the sins of those that choose to accept him as Lord and Master and try to live for him. It is appointed man once to die, and once you have been reborn as a Christian you cannot die again. It's pretty clear that the scripture reinforces this many times in a huge number of scriptures, you may want to broaden your references and study another source to get more enlightenment.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
No that isn't it at all. UNREPENTANT sinners are what is being spoken of. We all fall short of God's glory every day. God knows and even expects this. At Romans 7:18, Paul said "I have the desire to do what is fine, but not the ability to carry it out." It isn't the sins that disqualify a person, it is their "Dominant mental attitude" (Eph 4:22-24). If a person tries their best to live a Christian life, and occasionally sins, even seriously, but recognizes it, and tries to correct their thinking and actions in the future, that is all God expects of us. But if a person accepts Jesus as his savior, and then goes on to lead a life contrary to bible principles (fornication, violence, greed, etc) with no remorse or conscience for their actions, after knowing that such things are wrong, those are the people being referred to. Mathew 7:21 makes it very clear that not all who profess to be Christians will inherit God's kingdom. If that is true, then it must be possible to lose salvation...right? If everyone who professes to believe in Christ was in fact "saved" then that scripture would have no meaning.

Is this some manner of denominational doctrine or did you come up with this on your own? I'm just curious.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
When a person has conviction from the Holy Spirit, rejects their former life as a sinner and invites Christ to take a place in their hearts, and replaces the carnal self with a sanctified self. Then a person can't live a life as you describe without convictions.
A man always has a sin nature, that's the way we are from birth through the sin of Adam. But Christ died for the sins of the world, not just the sins of those that choose to accept him as Lord and Master and try to live for him. It is appointed man once to die, and once you have been reborn as a Christian you cannot die again. It's pretty clear that the scripture reinforces this many times in a huge number of scriptures, you may want to broaden your references and study another source to get more enlightenment.


How would you explain Mathew 7:20-23? I am very much about broadening my horizons, that's why I posed the original question. I use many different sources to study...I just like things to make sense.It doesn't make sense to me that Jesus said that a person can lose salvation if they can't.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Is this some manner of denominational doctrine or did you come up with this on your own? I'm just curious.

I'm far from an authority on the bible. My beliefs are based on my study of the bible. I have always been a bit skeptical of many doctrinal teachings because I have seen the bible to teach differently (some, not all). I think mainstream Christianity has polluted the Christian faith to contain teachings that are not scriptural. There are teachings in the catholic religion that are disproven by their own catholic seminary textbooks. they actually state that certain things are "a matter of tradition." My belief system is simple...if it can be proven to me from the bible (consistently throughout its text) I believe it, if it cannot, I don't. So I guess to answer your question...both. I don't believe something just because someone or some church tells me...I may hear about a particular subject that way, but I have to prove it to myself before I believe it.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
How would you explain Mathew 7:20-23? I am very much about broadening my horizons, that's why I posed the original question. I use many different sources to study...I just like things to make sense.It doesn't make sense to me that Jesus said that a person can lose salvation if they can't.

First off, that passage is directed at the "leadership", not the followers. Secondly, it clearly addresses those that "claim" to be true believers, but simply aren't. They didn't have any "salvation" to lose.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
First off, that passage is directed at the "leadership", not the followers. Secondly, it clearly addresses those that "claim" to be true believers, but simply aren't. They didn't have any "salvation" to lose.

What about Heb 10:26? It says the ransom Jesus provided is negated if we willfully practice sin AFTER receiving him (paraphrasing).
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Matthew 7:20-23King James Version (KJV)

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

This is speaking of "works" and how anyone who does "works" in there own name(for their glory or because they "Feel" that they should be doing them) and not strictly for the glory of God and for no other reason....will count as filthy rags. Only by faith, blood sacrifice, trust and a personal relationship with Christ will a person enter the kingdom of God, there's no other way to work your way to heaven....
Salvation is by Grace only...not a word or works thing.
Genuine salvation is by repentance of your sins and acceptance of the blood sacrifice that Jesus made when he died on the cross for the sins of the world. That's all, nothing added or taken away.








 
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41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
What about Heb 10:26? It says the ransom Jesus provided is negated if we willfully practice sin AFTER receiving him (paraphrasing).

Read that closely my friend, "knowledge" of truth and "acceptance" of the truth are two different things altogether. That passage is directed to unbelievers and is simply saying that once you have understood the truth and willfully rejected it, there is no measure of Grace for you as like there was previously.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Matthew 7:20-23King James Version (KJV)

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

This is speaking of "works" and how anyone who does "works" in there own name(for their glory or because they "Feel" that they should be doing them) and not strictly for the glory of God and for no other reason....will count as filthy rags. Only by faith, blood sacrifice, trust and a personal relationship with Christ will a person enter the kingdom of God, there's no other way to work your way to heaven....
Salvation is by Grace only...not a word or works thing.
Genuine salvation is by repentance of your sins and acceptance of the blood sacrifice that Jesus made when he died on the cross for the sins of the world. That's all, nothing added or taken away.

Ok. the issue I have with that is James chapter 2. Particularly in verses 14-26. It starts out plain saying that faith cannot save a person. It goes on to give examples of Abraham and Rahab; how they were declared righteous by their works...not their faith.


Again...to be clear, I'm not arguing...I'm asking.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Read that closely my friend, "knowledge" of truth and "acceptance" of the truth are two different things altogether. That passage is directed to unbelievers and is simply saying that once you have understood the truth and willfully rejected it, there is no measure of Grace for you as like there was previously.

The KJV renders that verse:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It is not merely a person who has just understood the truth, but RECEIVED it, meaning accepted it, and then rejected it. The bible uses the word received extensively to denote acceptance.
 
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Crappie_Hunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
James is saying our works are an outward expression of what Christ has done in our hearts. Abraham and Rahab had faith in God and their works expressed that faith, plus they lived before Jesus so their was no savior for them to accept. This whole Christianity thing is not as hard as you make it out to be....
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
James Chapter 2 is directed to believers that weren't doing anything for others in the name of Christ. In other words, their "faith" was hollow because it didn't manifest itself by deeds and works. Their deeds and works had nothing to do with redemption, but someone who is truly saved by Grace should be extending that same Grace to others.

In other words, being a Christian is fairly useless to others if you don't act like one. We're blessed so we can bless others.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
In that passage James is speaking literally to the new Jewish Church, he is telling them that men will know them by the works that they do and that "faith" means nothing to the naked and hungry who look to a 'godly" person for help. He is referring to the Old Testament since many Jewish people knew these teachings by heart having been taught them since birth, but were unable to read the "new" writings and teachings of Jesus.
Abraham and Rahab showed their faith through their "works", since it was many years before Jesus would die for their sins on the cross. All Jewish people who believed in God showed their "faith" through keeping the commandments, sacrifice, and other biblical doctrines taught by the various factions throughout the Old Testament years. Those were the works that were being referred to.
While I'm not the best source for this information, I do appreciate you asking, it makes me dig deeper and study harder as I should.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
The KJV renders that verse:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It is not merely a person who has just understood the truth, but RECEIVED it, meaning accepted it, and then rejected it. The bible uses the word received extensively to denote acceptance.

The audience there is JEWS living under the LAW - they had rejected Jesus, remember? The writer (likely Paul) is telling them your "system" of works and sacrifices for sins are null and void now. If you reject Jesus (Grace), you have rejected the only form of redemption available.

Jesus' death satisfied the Law and made all the things related to keeping it useless. The LAW was and is DEAD and no amount of "works" will save you ..... that's the context.
 
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badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
This is all very interesting. maybe it would be easier to see where I am coming from if I didn't just keep interjecting tidbits of why I believe Salvation can be lost...this is how the concept of salvations works to me:

The terms “save” and “salvation” are sometimes used by Bible writers to convey the idea of a person’s being delivered from danger or destruction. (Exodus 14:13, 14; Acts 27:20) Often, though, these terms refer to deliverance from sin. (Matthew 1:21) Since death is caused by sin, people who are saved from sin have the hope of living forever.(John 3:16, 17). To gain salvation, you must exercise faith in Jesus and demonstrate that faith by obeying his commands. (Acts 4:10, 12; Romans 10:9, 10; Hebrews 5:9). The Bible shows that you must have works, or acts of obedience, to prove that your faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, this does not mean that you can earn salvation. It is “God’s gift” based on his “undeserved kindness,” or “grace.”(Ephesians 2:8, 9; KJV).Can you lose out on salvation? Yes. Just as a person saved from drowning could fall or jump back into the water, a person who has been saved from sin but fails to keep exercising faith could lose out on salvation. We have all heard the term a fall from grace...where did this come from? For this reason, the Bible urges Christians who have received salvation “to put up a hard fight for the faith.” (Jude 3) It also warns those who have been saved: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).The Bible identifies God as the primary source of salvation, often referring to him as “Savior.” (1 Samuel 10:19; Isaiah 43:11; Titus 2:10; Jude 25) In addition, God used various men to deliver the ancient nation of Israel, and the Bible calls them “saviors.” (Nehemiah 9:27; Judges 3:9, 15; 2 Kings 13:5) Since God provides salvation from sin through the ransom of Jesus Christ, the Bible refers to Jesus as “Savior.” (Acts 5:31; Titus 1:4). Will everyone be saved? No, some people will not be saved. (2 Thessalonians 1:9) When Jesus was asked, “Are those being saved few?” he replied: “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.” (Luke 13:23, 24). There are several scriptures that are often used to defend universal salvation that I think are often misinterpreted. 1 Cor 15:22 supposedly teaches universal salvation by saying that “in the Christ all will be made alive.” The context of this verse discusses the resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:12, 13, 20, 21, 35) So the phrase “in the Christ all will be made alive” simply means that all who are resurrected receive this blessing through Jesus Christ. (John 11:25). Titus 2:11 supposedly teaches universal salvation by saying that God is “bringing salvation to all people.” (International Standard Version). The Greek word translated “all” in this verse can also mean “every kind or variety.” The correct understanding of Titus 2:11 is that God is making salvation available to all sorts of people, including people “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9, 10). Also, Peter 3:9 supposedly teaches universal salvation by saying that God “does not desire anyone to be destroyed.”God wants people to be saved, but he does not force them to accept his provision for salvation. His “day of judgment” will include the “destruction of the ungodly people.” (2 Peter 3:7). To me personally, there is way to much evidence in the bible indicating that salvation can be lost after it is given, than to the contrary. I can agree to disagree, but I just cannot see a just god (which he is) allowing a blatant unrepentant sinner to achieve the same reward as a lifelong true Christian just because they accepted Jesus as their savior at some point in their life. That isn't fair or loving to those who remained faithful.
 

Crappie_Hunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Badland, God cannot possibly love you anymore than he already does. There is nothing you can do to make him love you more or less. It's not like God has $100 and somebody who did "good" all their life gets $75 and somebody who was just "average" gets $25. God loves everyone the same. Somebody accepting Jesus on their death bed does not change anything about your salvation. Look at the prodigal son story. The older son says "dad I was with you from the beginning and have never waivered, why are you throwing a party for this son of yours" The father responds by telling him "I know what you have done, and everything I have is yours...." You should be glad things don't meet your standard of "fair". If they did none of would like it after we take our last breath. Praise God that he is a just and forgiving God not a fair God!!
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
There are degrees where true "works" or deeds will be counted. Those will be counted at the judgement seat, where our lives as Christians will be put to the test. Those that have been found to be workers for Christ and have selflessly tolled toward the betterment of mankind by their actions will be given several different kinds of "crowns". Those that tolled for Christ or the betterment of mankind in a manner or intent that was in any way selfish will be stripped of those deeds and they will not be counted toward their heavenly rewards.
There are reasons that we are told to seek instruction from teachers about things that are of Christ that we don't understand, my suggestion is to find a fundamental pastor to discuss these questions with.
The main thing to take away from all of this: Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
This is all very interesting. maybe it would be easier to see where I am coming from if I didn't just keep interjecting tidbits of why I believe Salvation can be lost...this is how the concept of salvations works to me:

The terms “save” and “salvation” are sometimes used by Bible writers to convey the idea of a person’s being delivered from danger or destruction. (Exodus 14:13, 14; Acts 27:20) Often, though, these terms refer to deliverance from sin. (Matthew 1:21) Since death is caused by sin, people who are saved from sin have the hope of living forever.(John 3:16, 17). To gain salvation, you must exercise faith in Jesus and demonstrate that faith by obeying his commands. (Acts 4:10, 12; Romans 10:9, 10; Hebrews 5:9). The Bible shows that you must have works, or acts of obedience, to prove that your faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, this does not mean that you can earn salvation. It is “God’s gift” based on his “undeserved kindness,” or “grace.”(Ephesians 2:8, 9; KJV).Can you lose out on salvation? Yes. Just as a person saved from drowning could fall or jump back into the water, a person who has been saved from sin but fails to keep exercising faith could lose out on salvation. We have all heard the term a fall from grace...where did this come from? For this reason, the Bible urges Christians who have received salvation “to put up a hard fight for the faith.” (Jude 3) It also warns those who have been saved: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).The Bible identifies God as the primary source of salvation, often referring to him as “Savior.” (1 Samuel 10:19; Isaiah 43:11; Titus 2:10; Jude 25) In addition, God used various men to deliver the ancient nation of Israel, and the Bible calls them “saviors.” (Nehemiah 9:27; Judges 3:9, 15; 2 Kings 13:5) Since God provides salvation from sin through the ransom of Jesus Christ, the Bible refers to Jesus as “Savior.” (Acts 5:31; Titus 1:4). Will everyone be saved? No, some people will not be saved. (2 Thessalonians 1:9) When Jesus was asked, “Are those being saved few?” he replied: “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.” (Luke 13:23, 24). There are several scriptures that are often used to defend universal salvation that I think are often misinterpreted. 1 Cor 15:22 supposedly teaches universal salvation by saying that “in the Christ all will be made alive.” The context of this verse discusses the resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:12, 13, 20, 21, 35) So the phrase “in the Christ all will be made alive” simply means that all who are resurrected receive this blessing through Jesus Christ. (John 11:25). Titus 2:11 supposedly teaches universal salvation by saying that God is “bringing salvation to all people.” (International Standard Version). The Greek word translated “all” in this verse can also mean “every kind or variety.” The correct understanding of Titus 2:11 is that God is making salvation available to all sorts of people, including people “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” (Revelation 7:9, 10). Also, Peter 3:9 supposedly teaches universal salvation by saying that God “does not desire anyone to be destroyed.”God wants people to be saved, but he does not force them to accept his provision for salvation. His “day of judgment” will include the “destruction of the ungodly people.” (2 Peter 3:7). To me personally, there is way to much evidence in the bible indicating that salvation can be lost after it is given, than to the contrary. I can agree to disagree, but I just cannot see a just god (which he is) allowing a blatant unrepentant sinner to achieve the same reward as a lifelong true Christian just because they accepted Jesus as their savior at some point in their life. That isn't fair or loving to those who remained faithful.

Don't take this as a disparaging comment, because more people than not think this way:

YOU HAVE A "WORKS" BASED MENTALITY REGARDING SALVATION AND YOU'RE READING AND INTERPRETING EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE THROUGH THAT PRISM. Flawed premises will always lead to wrong conclusions.

Salvation is about God's love for us - not our love for God. We can't earn it, so we can't lose it. Grace is a gift - if it were anything else it wouldn't be Grace.

Repentance means "change your mind", not change your behavior. Salvation is freely offered because of who God is - it's not about YOU, it's about HIM!

Reboot your thinking my friend and start all over from scratch.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
41 mag is spot on. Its a thought process change. The thoughts will change your behaviors to an extent. You asked about a murderer. A Christian doesnt have murder enter their mind.
 

Triggermortis

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Badland, please be careful to understand what magfan is saying. He is correct. You did nothing to merit and accomplish your salvation and you can/will do nothing to lose it.

It was an entirely new day in my spiritual walk when this truth was made real.

Peace.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Its not about being perfect, but you will see your flaws and try to correct them. You will feel guilts about things that never crossed your mind before. You will live to serve God and as a result, his other children. You will still be a sinner, until the day you die. You will see sins of your own like never before. You will understand things that you didnt before. You will have plenty of things you dont understand.
 

Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
In our previous location, we were members of a Baptist Church which had a "once saved, always saved" doctrine. We are currently members of a Free Will Baptist Church which has a "you can lose your salvation" doctrine. I told my wife, concerning salvation, that I don't really care for 2 reasons. One, I've not found where it says specifically one way or the other in the Bible. Secondly, when your time comes, you either ARE , or you AIN'T and nothing before matters.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
If your salvation is on and off, how do you know what state of redemption you're in from minute to minute, hour by hour, day to day, etc?
 
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seminolewind

Guest
In our previous location, we were members of a Baptist Church which had a "once saved, always saved" doctrine. We are currently members of a Free Will Baptist Church which has a "you can lose your salvation" doctrine. I told my wife, concerning salvation, that I don't really care for 2 reasons. One, I've not found where it says specifically one way or the other in the Bible. Secondly, when your time comes, you either ARE , or you AIN'T and nothing before matters.

From that church .... Run Forest Run and don't look back!
 

Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Seminole, I've learned that if you find a church in which you agree 100% with ALL it's doctrines (remember there is a difference between CHURCH/Denominational doctrine and BIBLE doctrine), then you will also find you are the ONLY founder of that church. As long as a church preaches and promotes sound biblical teachings, I'm good with it.
 
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seminolewind

Guest
(remember there is a difference between CHURCH/Denominational doctrine and BIBLE doctrine)

Not sure I agree with this. One usually makes up the other, as without one you can't have the other? I may have misunderstood your comment so I apologize if I did...
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Not sure I agree with this. One usually makes up the other, as without one you can't have the other? I may have misunderstood your comment so I apologize if I did...

I think he makes a valid point. Take the trinity for example. There are churches that teaches it as true doctrine, and churches that teach it is false. Obviously it can't be both. Either it's true or it isn't. Church doctrine, unfortunately, can and does differ from bible doctrine in many cases.
 
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