Savage 10ML=II Explosion

ncturkeyhunter

Guest
That's why I said he shouldn't talk about it. If he's unsure the bullet wasn't seated properly, a lawyer would ask if he is sure it wasn't double loaded or had the proper powder charge. Once you show doubt in one area, it opens up the door to other areas. Things you say or write can be used against you.

Sounds like this guy (Homebrewale) is an attorney looking for a client.
 

ncturkeyhunter

Guest
All guns will fail. I Own two savage 10 ML's, no issues whatsoever.
 

shadycove

Twelve Pointer
If you reload metallic cartridges, you should know that some powders are explosive [think blown barrels] with light loads. What happens is that if the cartridge case is less than 60%+/- full, the primer flame ignites all the powder at once instead of just the rear of the powder charge in the case [combustion space].
With the above condition, some fast burning powders detonate instead of burning.
Usually, this happens in pistols but it has happened in rifles too.
If the bullet in a muzzleloader was not properly seated, you would have the same condition [less than 60% of combustion space taken up by powder]. This could be what happened in this event.
Hope that you heal quickly.
 
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1SHOT1KILL

Old Mossy Horns
I hope and pray that ffpup make as full of a recovery as possible as quickly as possible. I never like to see anyone hurt in any firearm accident or incident.

Having some intimate knowledge of the 10ML and 10ML-II, their designs, their functions, and their strengths and weaknesses, I can say that the Savage smokeless muzzleloaders are the strongest muzzleloaders to ever be commercially produced. The most popular complaint about them is how heavy they are, because they are over built for strength and safety. As strong as they are, they are no bullet proof. Since the very first one hit the market back in 2000, there have been approximately 40 or so that have had a catastrophic failure out of 60,000 or so made, such as the one that unfortunately occurred with ffpup.

Why these 40 or so have had catastrophic failures, who knows with 100% certainty. I do know for a fact that the 10ML (aka the Type 1) has been tested to 152,000 PSI that bulged the barrel and bent the recoil lug but without catastrophic failure. The 10ML-II has been tested to 126,000 PSI that bulged the barrel and bent the recoil lug but without catastrophic failure. So what causes a catastrophic failure?? I do not know for sure. Savage Arms has not been able to replicate a catastrophic failure using plausible loading practices. They even sent a dozen 10ML-II's to the renown labs of H.P. White back in 2008 (I think it was) and even H.P. White could not achieve a plausible catastrophic failure. They did get one to blow, but it took way more than a plausible double charge to do it.

So in this case with ffpup and his 10ML-II, what caused the catastrophic failure?? Who truly knows. I gather from this and the other thread that not even ffpup knows for sure what happened. We can sit here and speculate all day and night, but when it comes to speculation, we are only limited by our imagination. Some plausible explanations (some are far more plausible than others) that have been presented in some of the past catastrophic failures could be: a double charge (powder/powder/saboted bullet), a double load (powder saboted bullet/powder/saboted bullet), a double bullet (powder/saboted bullet/saboted bullet), a bore obstruction, a bullet not fully seated on the charge, gas check cutting, and a recent theory of impurities in the stainless steel used by Savage. Now if a bullet wasn't seated fully on the charge, lets say it was about 1" off the powder charge, that may be far enough to allow a flash over and cause the powder charge to detonate instead of burn. In centerfire cartridges this has been known and proven to cause catastrophic failures. It has been speculated that a double charge (powder/saboted bullet/powder/saboted bullet) may cause the same effect as a bore obstruction, due the spiked pressure causing the first sabot to fail and allow the buring gas to blow by and ignite the send powder charge, with the resulting pressures creating backward pressure and resistance on the first burning and expanding powder charge and all that pressure has to go somewhere and causes the barrel to blow. That theory is only that a theory and not yet proven as far as I know of. The gas check cutting theory has been debunked by both Savage and H.P White. The excess sulfur and/or impurities in the stainless steel is a relative new theory that has popped up in the last couple years. Let me say this about Savage Arms, they do not produce the steels used in their firearms (I am not aware of any firearms manufacture that produces their own 4140 Chrome-Moly or 416 Stainless), but purchases the 4140CM and 416 stainless from certain manufactures for their firearms. These steels are certified at the foundries that they meet the criteria before being shipped Savage and/or other firearms manufactures. Once it arrives at Savage, they inspect all the required certification tags and/or stampings to ensure everything in in order before accepting the shipment. As far as I know there is no metallurgy test done to ensure that there is no excess sulfur in the 416 stainless. Savage uses the same 416 stainless and 4140CM round stock for actions and barrels, on all rimfire, centerfire, muzzleloaders. Funny how there are no reports of stainless centerfire rifles barrels failing eventhough they very well came from the very same batch (or batches) of stainless steel that may be in question lately.

Since the charge in question was 42 grains of IMR 4759 and a 270 grain saboted projectile. That load should only produced about 38,000 PSI give or take 500 PSI. It should still be well within the normal and safe operating range for the 10ML-II even if it has excessive amount of sulfur or gas check cutting. Having studied quit a few of these failures concerning the 10ML-II (there has not been a 10ML failure yet) I can tell everyone that there are 2 things that the majority of these failures have in common; 416 Stainless Steel and IMR-4759 powder. What the correlation is between these 2 are, I don't know or even have a small clue. I admit that I am not smart enough by any means to figure that out, much less am I an engineer or metallurgist.
 
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Billy

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Thank you for sharing your expertise on the subject, 1SHOT1KILL. I'm surprised to learn that only the stainless guns have failed. I guess I mistakenly thought stainless was stronger. Do you know how the strength of the 45 Pacnor barrels used in some conversions compares to the factory stainless?
 

1SHOT1KILL

Old Mossy Horns
Thank you for sharing your expertise on the subject, 1SHOT1KILL. I'm surprised to learn that only the stainless guns have failed. I guess I mistakenly thought stainless was stronger. Do you know how the strength of the 45 Pacnor barrels used in some conversions compares to the factory stainless?

The Pac-Nor, Brux, and other after market barrels used in the popular 45 caliber conversions are stronger than the Savage factory original barrels, simply because they pretty much use the factory contour as a guide but are generally slightly larger in diameter (every Pac-Nor I've used or installed has been .003"-.010" larger in diameter and Brux runs about .050" larger), and also have a smaller bore (.458" versus .510") which gives you a greater wall thickness of the barrel. You will notice that the 45 caliber conversion muzzleloaders are also heavier than the Savage original 50 calibers.
 

Billy

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
The Pac-Nor, Brux, and other after market barrels used in the popular 45 caliber conversions are stronger than the Savage factory original barrels, simply because they pretty much use the factory contour as a guide but are generally slightly larger in diameter (every Pac-Nor I've used or installed has been .003"-.010" larger in diameter and Brux runs about .050" larger), and also have a smaller bore (.458" versus .510") which gives you a greater wall thickness of the barrel. You will notice that the 45 caliber conversion muzzleloaders are also heavier than the Savage original 50 calibers.

That's what I thought. Thank you very much.
 
Saw pictures of i guess what was your bad day hope you heal up prayers with you, know i did be STUPID and double my Savage ml it knocked the He-- out of my and i think it swelled the barrel will check it out later but have also bought another barrel
 

ncturkeyhunter

Guest
And you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I could give a rats :donk:donk:donk if your FIL was the Pope.
 

Downeast

Twelve Pointer
I just checked my powder for my 10ML and I am using 5744. So far no problems. I haven't shot it in two years though.
 

1SHOT1KILL

Old Mossy Horns
I just checked my powder for my 10ML and I am using 5744. So far no problems. I haven't shot it in two years though.

As far as I know, there has not been any catastrophic failures involving Accurate Arms 5744 powder. There have been a few bulged/ringed barrels when ramrods were left in the bore, doubles charges, etc., but that's all. With 300gr bullets and 5744 powder with charges starting at 42.0gr up to 45.0gr, you are in the approximate operating range of 30K to 35K PSI.
 

FishHunt

Old Mossy Horns
Interesting about the stainless guns. Remember when the stainless Sako 75 rifles were blowing barrels up? The Sako 75 just kinda silently went away. There were more than a couple of stainless Tikka rifles that went kaboom alongside their Sako cousins.

<>< Fish
 

mdunker

Ten Pointer
I may know someone who left a ramrod in the barrel of a ML10-II. It may have knocked him off of the shooting bench. 43 grains of AA 4677 may also turn the ramrod into a projectile that travels about 150 yards. The barrel showed no damage at all and it has been fired 20-30 times since with no issues.

Again, I may know a guy.
 

Homebrewale

Old Mossy Horns
And you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night! I could give a rats :donk:donk:donk if your FIL was the Pope.

Ah, you're such a nice and kind person. I bet you go to church every Sunday.

As Mr. Gadget correctly pointed out, I was pointing out facts some may not see. In this case, some includes you. Any good lawyer will tell a client to keep their mouth shut if they are pursuing a lawsuit. I have no idea if the OP is looking into it but if he is, it's best not to post about what he may or may not have done while loading the gun.
 

ncturkeyhunter

Guest
Ah, you're such a nice and kind person. I bet you go to church every Sunday.

As Mr. Gadget correctly pointed out, I was pointing out facts some may not see. In this case, some includes you. Any good lawyer will tell a client to keep their mouth shut if they are pursuing a lawsuit. I have no idea if the OP is looking into it but if he is, it's best not to post about what he may or may not have done while loading the gun.

Not every Sunday, as Roman Catholic I can go to Mass on Saturdays insread.
 

DADOGG14

Eight Pointer
Typical of most game wardens in the way you were treated. They are the only branch of law enforcement I harbor any contempt at all for.
Hope you heal up and make as full a recovery as possible.

I don't think that is "Typical." That's is a pretty wide brush to paint with. I would hope that all of your encounters didn't have that same out come.
 
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