No such thing as a cull buck.

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
CRC may be upset I found this before him...I stumbled across a deer study conducted by Mississippi State University Deer Lab. They did a 10 year study on genetics that completely debunks the old school theory of culling small antlered bucks in order to improve genetics in a given area. Makes a TON of sense. Their findings were that genetics in a deer herd cannot be changed, period. The vast majority of small antlered bucks can be attributed to other factors. Spike Bucks for example, have long been considered as genetically inferior. In their studies, they determined that yearling bucks are most often spikes because they were born later than yearlings that have branched antlers. This is a direct result of a skewed sex ratio in the herd. When the rut is spread out over 2-3 months, which will be the case when you have a 10 or 20 to 1 doe/buck ratio, does get bred later in the year, which means their fawns will be born later, and they do not have time to catch up to the older fawns their first year. The study showed that by age 2, almost all the spikes had caught up to the other bucks the same age. The biologist said that shooting a spike buck will do absolutely nothing to improve genetics, because you can't. Genetics are not able to be manipulated. Another thing the study mentioned was buck dispersal. 80% of yearling bucks will disperse to an area different than where they were born. Which means that no matter how many young "cull bucks" you shoot, more will always come from somewhere else, and the buck fawns you see in your area will move somewhere else, so there is a constant influx of young bucks from other areas, making culling bucks in hopes to improve genetics in the herd counterproductive. It was also confirmed that the mother of a buck fawn has more to do with his potential antler size than the father. The mother's genetics will determine body size of a buck as well. Once again this leads back to breeding date. a late bred doe has less available food to grow a fetus, and her body will restrict the amount of nutrition to the fawn while she is pregnant, resulting in lower birth weights, and antler growth that is stunted. The study determined the biggest factor to seeing bigger antlered bucks is to balance the sex ratio. TX for example has small bodied deer, but they grow big racks. Many of the best managed ranches (the study mentioned the King Ranch) have a 1 to 1 sex ratio, so all the breeding happens in a short window, and fawns are all born at roughly the same time. The fawns are healthier and bigger, which predisposes them to grow bigger antlers because less of their food has to go towards body and skeletal development.

It is true that some bucks just do not have genetic potential to have big antlers. Antler size is a bell curve, with most in a certain range, and a few above (really big bucks) and a few below ("cull bucks"). The best reason to shoot a "cull buck" is to remove a mouth from the table and lower food stress on the deer herd, or to keep him from running off a really nice 2 or 3 year old with much better potential. It will in no way affect the future genetics of a wild herd.

The best way to improve antler size is through managing sex ratio, and by using nutrition to shift that bell curve to where a greater percentage of bucks reach their full potential. Most bucks in the South do not reach their maximum genetic potential due to being born late, poor food, and stress.
 

Acorn1956

Six Pointer
Interesting article and makes a lot of sense. According to the article a cull buck would/could still be a buck "below" the bell curve. I wonder what that bell curve is? What would constitute a cull buck in this scenario?


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badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Interesting article and makes a lot of sense. According to the article a cull buck would/could still be a buck "below" the bell curve. I wonder what that bell curve is? What would constitute a cull buck in this scenario?


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Not sure what the bell curve for NC looks like, but the biologist stated that in MS, the average mature (5 years old) buck grew to be 125 inches (top of the bell curve), with 15% below and 15% above that. He said in the Midwest the average is more like 138 inches, with the same percentage above and below average. management of individual properties will allow some areas to consistently produce bucks on the above average side of the curve, but you will never be able to grow bigger deer than there are genetics for.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
The cull buck idea never made any sense just based on the simple fact that the does carry half of the genetics. Unfortunately you can preach the cull buck myth all you want and people are not going to change. People for some reason have to feel like they are "managing" "their" herd. Or they need an excuse to shoot the small ones.
 

MJ74

Old Mossy Horns
I always wondered...... how are these ranches offering management or cull hunts for the last 20 yrs if killing these deer actually helped the genetics on their place.
Kinda like the saying if we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
I always wondered...... how are these ranches offering management or cull hunts for the last 20 yrs if killing these deer actually helped the genetics on their place.
Kinda like the saying if we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?

Because "Hunts for deer that won't score very high so clients don't want to use their trophy tag on them" just doesn't have the same ring to it.:)
 

I Hunt

Old Mossy Horns
Has anyone killed a 140 or 150 pound cowhorn, the horns on which were the length of main beams on a buck with multiple points? Also the horns curl forward just like a main beam should and are thick like a main beam should be.

Not sure if that buck is a cull, but that sure fits the description of a cull.

The article is correct that small horned, small spikes, etc are typically bucks that for whatever reason just have not formed mutli point beams. However, when you seen a cowhorn in the 140 to 150 pound range, that just may be what is mean by a cull buck

Just asking for conversation
 

catfishrus

Twelve Pointer
Has anyone killed a 140 or 150 pound cowhorn, the horns on which were the length of main beams on a buck with multiple points? Also the horns curl forward just like a main beam should and are thick like a main beam should be.

Not sure if that buck is a cull, but that sure fits the description of a cull.

The article is correct that small horned, small spikes, etc are typically bucks that for whatever reason just have not formed mutli point beams. However, when you seen a cowhorn in the 140 to 150 pound range, that just may be what is mean by a cull buck

Just asking for conversation

Here is one I killed a few years back that weighed 175 lbs in mid Dec. and was jaw bone aged at 4.5 by the NCWRC. I cant tell if he was a cull or just a stud. ;)
 

Weekender

Twelve Pointer
I shot a three point aged at three and a half at the sandhills nwr in patrick, sc, a number of years ago. It wasnt a cull. I hadnt killed a buck yet that season and wanted to kill one. Not a cull, a kill.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
I always wondered...... how are these ranches offering management or cull hunts for the last 20 yrs if killing these deer actually helped the genetics on their place.
Kinda like the saying if we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?


That's a deep post no matter how you look at it!
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
Has anyone killed a 140 or 150 pound cowhorn, the horns on which were the length of main beams on a buck with multiple points? Also the horns curl forward just like a main beam should and are thick like a main beam should be.

Not sure if that buck is a cull, but that sure fits the description of a cull.

The article is correct that small horned, small spikes, etc are typically bucks that for whatever reason just have not formed mutli point beams. However, when you seen a cowhorn in the 140 to 150 pound range, that just may be what is mean by a cull buck

Just asking for conversation

The point is not that there are mature bucks with less than average racks walking around. The point is that shooting that buck with the intentions of it improving the genetics of the heard is false. There will always be Bucks that don't live up to whatever definition you put on them for a given age. It is boarderline insane to expect every single anaimal at age 5 to sport 150+ inches of bone. That's that expecting every college football player to go to the NFL.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
The point is not that there are mature bucks with less than average racks walking around. The point is that shooting that buck with the intentions of it improving the genetics of the heard is false. There will always be Bucks that don't live up to whatever definition you put on them for a given age. It is boarderline insane to expect every single anaimal at age 5 to sport 150+ inches of bone. That's that expecting every college football player to go to the NFL.

But are there NFL scouts that stop following players after their sophomore/junior year because they can feel confident that they will not miraculously turn into something amazing their senior year?
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
Has anyone killed a 140 or 150 pound cowhorn, the horns on which were the length of main beams on a buck with multiple points? Also the horns curl forward just like a main beam should and are thick like a main beam should be.

Not sure if that buck is a cull, but that sure fits the description of a cull.

The article is correct that small horned, small spikes, etc are typically bucks that for whatever reason just have not formed mutli point beams. However, when you seen a cowhorn in the 140 to 150 pound range, that just may be what is mean by a cull buck

Just asking for conversation

Last year we had a 16-17" wide "8 pointer" on our place. Longest tine was maybe 1". IMO, he was a cull. But I passed on him. This year we did not see him, or at least not in a way we could recognize. Was he a cull that I should have shot? Did he grow a normal rack this year and we didn't recognize him? I have no clue.

I 100% agree that culling a spike is poor management. I think if you can positively age a deer at 4+, and he doesn't break 100", you should "cull" him. I don't think you are making a big impact on the herd overall by doing so, but you're certainly not hurting it if you have decent deer density on your property.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
But are there NFL scouts that stop following players after their sophomore/junior year because they can feel confident that they will not miraculously turn into something amazing their senior year?

Every buck I guess has the potential to pull a Tom Brady and turn into something. So you're going to shoot a buck at 4-5 bc he doesn't meet expectations. "Proper management" has been telling you that this is a cull and he's hurting the herd. The part everyone forget in the equation is that buck has been breeding for 3-4 years possibly more if he was lucky enough to breed his first year. Your never going to get ahead of that nor can you address does that have genetics for smaller racks. Cull bucks is a Joke coined by Texas ranchers to make money off smaller bucks that they can't charge a trophy fee for.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
Every buck I guess has the potential to pull a Tom Brady and turn into something. So you're going to shoot a buck at 4-5 bc he doesn't meet expectations. "Proper management" has been telling you that this is a cull and he's hurting the herd. The part everyone forget in the equation is that buck has been breeding for 3-4 years possibly more if he was lucky enough to breed his first year. Your never going to get ahead of that nor can you address does that have genetics for smaller racks. Cull bucks is a Joke coined by Texas ranchers to make money off smaller bucks that they can't charge a trophy fee for.

I definitely understand and agree with your point. But why let him breed for another 4-5 years? Like I said in my next post, I don't think you're having a huge impact on the overall herd, but I certainly don't think you're hurting it unless you have a low deer density where any breeding Buck is a good thing. I think "cull buck" is an extremely abused term, but I do not agree that there is no such thing.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
I mean the average life span of a white tail is 4.5 years. By the time he's mature he doesn't have much left. I'm not saying to let them all walk bc next year they may be a giant. Just don't think you are doing yourself any favors for next years season.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
By the time he is 4.5, you can get a good judgement of his potential. Most likely, he's either a scrub, a shooter, or a busted up buck that would have been nice. Care to guess how many 4.5 year old bucks get killed each year in NC? I don't know the answer, but I'm sure they are not the typical "cull bucks" in this state. If they were, the term cull buck would be received much better.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
By the time he is 4.5, you can get a good judgement of his potential. Most likely, he's either a scrub, a shooter, or a busted up buck that would have been nice. Care to guess how many 4.5 year old bucks get killed each year in NC? I don't know the answer, but I'm sure they are not the typical "cull bucks" in this state. If they were, the term cull buck would be received much better.

For sure. If the average buck taken as a cull was 4.5 instead of between 1.5 and 2.5 everyone stands the benifit.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
For sure. If the average buck taken as a cull was 4.5 instead of between 1.5 and 2.5 everyone stands the benifit.

Lol, that's the point I've been trying to make from the start. If we would have had this conversation ten beers ago, maybe I could have saved us both a lot of typing!
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
I think a buck "can" live to be 9 years old. A doe, 19 yrs.

The crazy thing is, I read about 10 yrs ago (and hopefully it has changed) that the average age of harvested bucks in NC was 1.9 years old. So, depending on how many survive hunters, motor vehicles, disease, other predators, starvation, debilitating injury, etc... 4.5 years is probably about right. Maybe high.
 

ncnat

Ten Pointer
I don't know about all this cull buck stuff y'all are talking about, I try to make burger out of them before the nuts drop.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
I see both sides of this issue. They did a bunch of studies down in Texas on this very topic and they learned 2 things. 1: Most spikes do become racked bucks over time. 2: Spikes are always going to be "inferior" antler-wise to their cousins in the same cohort (fancy word for bunch of fawns born the same year) who were racked bucks as yearlings. I don't shoot cigarette spikes, but I do tend to shoot cowhorns for this reason. No, I don't think I'm going to magically fix the antler genetics by taking out a few cowhorns, but I know that one won't breed again. They're also more tender than some 5.5 year old beast....
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
2: Spikes are always going to be "inferior" antler-wise to their cousins in the same cohort (fancy word for bunch of fawns born the same year) who were racked bucks as yearlings.

This theory was actually disproven by the MSU study. Over a 10 year span, they studied a herd of deer with wild genetics in a controlled environment. they caught wild pregnant does and released them in an enclosure. All deer were given the same amount of food throughout the study. In year two, the buck fawns that had spike antlers were the ones born latest (mothers bred later). When all the bucks were 2 years old, the ones who had been spikes were within a few inches of the other 2 year olds, and by the time they were 3, there was no distinguishable difference. They also conducted a separate study monitoring captured deer from regions with poor food quality vs regions with agriculture. The deer from poor food regions were in fact stunted across the board compared to the deer that had access to better food. But what was interesting is that after capturing, all deer were again given the same quality food, and although the parent stock from the poor nutritional area remained stunted, the second and third generations antler and body size caught up to the deer from the agricultural region. They determined that the two largest factors that contribute to inferior antlers are poor sex ratio, resulting in delayed births of many fawns, and inadequate nutrition. Deer, especially in the south, generally have better genetics than they ever realize due to those two factors. An "old" spike has most likely been undernourished his entire life.
 
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