speaking of regs

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
We are the only state the still allows inshore trawling, some how all the shrimpers in the other states make it. I don't really care for calling this a fix for rec guys which makes it sound like its Rec vs Commercial. It's no secret that stocks have seen better days. Any effort to improve that stands to benefit everyone.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
the information i saw did not mention redfish as being a victim of shrimp by catch.

Are they impacted so that this will help that fishing?
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
If they live in the sound and near coastal waters, which they do, they are impacted. Even fish that that spend their adult life offshore are impacted as juveniles by things happening inshore. I have caught things you would never imagine being inshore like spiny lobsters.
 

Winnie 70

Ten Pointer
Been going down hill many years now. Ten to fifteen years ago could catch big mullet/spots in Oct. to Dec. every fall....most anywhere up and down the coast...boat and surf. They not there in the numbers now....not for hook and line....because I have seen it every fall for years. Now you go to the fish houses and buy them by the box full and watch them come in off those boats and just seems that thing got out balance between the rec. and com. fisherman...and don't know what the answer is to be fair to both sides. I do know that there is no more water being made and there is lot more fisherman competing for the same resource...so there is a major problem for all concerned and the people making there lively hood off the resource are going to see a change that hurts for sure. But, the states that have put regulations in place to help the stocks are reaping the rewards for it. We will see....sometime you have to change the way you look at a problem, and remember that you do the same thing over and over you going to get the same results...over and over.
 

Firefly

Old Mossy Horns
We are the only state the still allows inshore trawling, some how all the shrimpers in the other states make it. I don't really care for calling this a fix for rec guys which makes it sound like its Rec vs Commercial. It's no secret that stocks have seen better days. Any effort to improve that stands to benefit everyone.

I agree but we will see how this goes now, IMO the nurseries should have been closed to trawling long ago..
 

skimmer

Six Pointer
Can't wait to see what everyone blames the lack of fish they bring home on when the trawling is banned...maybe the crab pots??
 

Mommicked

Guest
Can't wait to see what everyone blames the lack of fish they bring home on when the trawling is banned...maybe the crab pots??
I couldn't have said it any better. I've watched all my life, there are fewer and fewer commercial boats every single year. There are more and more recreational boats each and every year. Pretty soon, there will be almost no commercial fishermen to blame, or to provide fresh local seafood. I do not hold a commercial fishing license, but I do buy seafood, and know a lot of commercial fishermen. This will tank many of them. There has been a huge smear campaign leveled against commercial fishermen by well funded out of state groups. Let that one sink in for a few minutes before anyone spouts off a reply based on information given by these 'conservation' groups.

PS-bycatch: (of which there is SIGNIFICANTLY less than when I was a kid, I have been on trawlers a few times) All the fish that are bycatch that is caught is RAKED OVERBOARD. If you aren't seeing small dead fish washing ashore every time you go out boating, then something must be EATING the bycatch. Like shrimp, crabs, and many of the species of fish sportfishermen like to catch. Also, the shrimp and crabs that eat the bycatch are eaten by game fish as well. Think about that one for a few minutes too. I don't think anyone here is likely to change anyone elses minds, but a lot of honest folks are about to lose their very livelihoods over this, and if someone knocked on your door and told you that you were no longer allowed to practice your occupation because it interfered with the preferences of the local soccer team, you'd likely never get over it. These provisions WILL tank the NC shrimping industry as it has been known for the last 50 or more years.
 
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SharpShooter

Ten Pointer
This doesn't ban trawling. It limits it to 3 days a week and makes it illegal to trawl at night. This helps the little guy who makes supplemental income from trawling. It also limits the size of the trawl to 90 feet. This helps level the playing field between the little guys and the 7 families that own the large steel hulled trawlers you see in oriental and wanchese and Beaufort.
 

Mommicked

Guest
This doesn't ban trawling. It limits it to 3 days a week and makes it illegal to trawl at night.
So, maybe we should make everyone else's jobs in the state eligible to work 3 days a week, and cut their income accordingly? I know for fact some areas shrimping only works in the daytime. And, I also know in some areas, shrimping only works AT NIGHT. I've asked old timers who've worked the water all of their lives. They've told me (different ones, more than once) that the shrimping run turned on or turned off at sunrise or sunset. Shrimping doesn't really work on a clock all nice and pat like folks would have you believe.

[/QUOTE] This helps the little guy who makes supplemental income from trawling.[/QUOTE]
Oh, big boats, big boats, they must all be the real evil. Let's save the little guy. There are plenty of 'little guys' with small boats who hate this regulation worse than they do politicians. These rulings don't help them. You can ask them. They are way more worried about well meant regulations and the Marine Fisheries Commission than they ever will worry about a big trawler shrimping in their area!

I've shrimped on 17' boats (that's about as small as can be effective). And 35 footers. And I know plenty of guys who've worked 'big boats'. I've never made a single week's income commercial fishing; but I have lots of family in the trade. Trust me, this isn't helping them, it's putting a coffin nail in them. These guys (to us on the coast, who were born and raised here) are like the small farmer. And we don't like watching them crucified.

3 day a week, daytime only shrimping will kill most of them, and make it harder for the public to enjoy fresh seafood. Do not be seduced or misled by out of state conservationists with hidden agendas.
 

Mommicked

Guest
So are you saying that the by-catch is being raked overboard is still alive?
No sir, I re-read my above posts, and I don't see where I said anything of the kind. Here's what I can tell you, personally, about bycatch:
1. Bycatch (fish caught by accident, of no commercial use to the industry, raked overboard) is significantly less than 30 years ago. This is because we have fish excluder devices (FEDs) that let many small and medium fish out of the net. It also lets some shrimp out too, but such is the life of a shrimper.
2. To my knowledge, we are the ONLY state to have a requirement of not one, but 2 FED's. Further bycatch reduction. Score.
3. As soon as the nets are dumped into the culling tray, shrimp are being pulled out, and the fish are being raked overboard. Many fish do make it into the water alive, many do not. A percentage of the fish (not a huge one, and I dont' have numbers, sorry) DO make it overboard alive.
4. Bycatch isn't exactly the enemy it's made out to be. Bycatch that hits the water dead is very quickly eaten by things you eat. Nature is funny. It doesn't waste much. So gamefish like trout, drum, flounder, bluefish, and the like may very well be eating a lot of the bycatch. Maybe that's why some folks can't get the fish to bite! Lol. Crabs, shrimp, and gamefish eating bycatch get bigger and fatter. Nothing goes to waste.
5. When fish hatch in the thousands, scientists know that only a very small percent of them will reach adulthood. Many will be eaten by something bigger long before they reach maturity. It's literally a jungle underwater. Everything is trying to eat anything smaller than itself, and many species have no qualms about cannibalism whatsoever. So when a trawler catches a bunch of juvenile fish, and dumps them back overboard, and they get eaten by say a large red drum or a flounder, many of these small fish would have met the same exact fate had they never hit the net. Maybe even the same day.
6. Bycatch: there are fewer commercial fishermen than any time in the last 30 years. Fewer boats, less bycatch. A kindergartener could follow this logic. It's not hard to figure out.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
For number 1 you defined bycatch and in number 4 you talk about gamefish eating bycatch. You failed to either mention or realize that bycatch included gamefish.

Number 2, we are also the only state to allow inshore trawling.

Number 5, what kind of assumptions are you basing this off of?, that the fish killed would have died anyway? Do you know the natural mortality rates of these species and the mortality rates of fish caught in a net? For example if lets say 1 out of every 100 fish make it and the net takes an entire school of 500, in theory only 5 were going to make it. They net got culled and due to stress only 1 makes it. Now you have changed the odds. You have to account for the efficiency of the net over natural selection.
 
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Mommicked

Guest
For number 1 you defined bycatch and in number 4 you talk about gamefish eating bycatch. You failed to either mention or realize that bycatch included gamefish.

Number 2, we are also the only state to allow inshore trolling.

Number 5, what kind of assumptions are you basing this off of?, that the fish killed would have died anyway? Do you know the natural mortality rates of these species and the mortality rates of fish caught in a net? For example if lets say 1 out of every 100 fish make it and the net takes an entire school of 500, in theory only 5 were going to make it. They net got culled and due to stress only 1 makes it. Now you have changed the odds. You have to account for the efficiency of the net over natural selection.
1. Gamefish are caught. No sportfishermen I've ever met gives a damn whether a spot or croaker gets caught, or a butterfish. They only pay attention when a drum, trout, flounder, or bluefish gets caught. I've never seen a drum in a tail bag. I'll not suggest they don't get caught, but I honestly have never seen a single one. Grey trout and speckled trout are not uncommon. Bluefish and Spanish are occasional. Small sharks like sandsharks. Flounders once in a while, it really depends on where you are. Most bycatch has a lot to do with where you are. Most of it is croakers, spots, butterfish, and the like. Gamefish is a fairly small proportion. But the fish that are caught as bycatch? Mostly small stuff, the size of your finger. When a speckled trout the size of your finger goes overboard dead, a keeper sized trout or drum may eat him in a flash. Just like as if he were alive and swimming.
2. That doesn't mean we are wrong or they are right. NC has a very unique coastline, if you haven't noticed. This isn't FL, LA, or VA. What works here or there may not interchange. If you like those states, maybe you should consider them for residence? My family was fishing here when there were still arrows to be dodged. And its TRAWLING. Trolling is what people do for bluefish.
5. I've spent a few nights on the decks of trawlers and channel net boats (do you know what a channel netter is?). Have you? If not, how is your guess so much more likely to be accurate than mine? I'm really curious.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
1. Gamefish are caught. No sportfishermen I've ever met gives a damn whether a spot or croaker gets caught, or a butterfish. They only pay attention when a drum, trout, flounder, or bluefish gets caught. I've never seen a drum in a tail bag. I'll not suggest they don't get caught, but I honestly have never seen a single one. Grey trout and speckled trout are not uncommon. Bluefish and Spanish are occasional. Small sharks like sandsharks. Flounders once in a while, it really depends on where you are. Most bycatch has a lot to do with where you are. Most of it is croakers, spots, butterfish, and the like. Gamefish is a fairly small proportion. But the fish that are caught as bycatch? Mostly small stuff, the size of your finger. When a speckled trout the size of your finger goes overboard dead, a keeper sized trout or drum may eat him in a flash. Just like as if he were alive and swimming.
2. That doesn't mean we are wrong or they are right. NC has a very unique coastline, if you haven't noticed. This isn't FL, LA, or VA. What works here or there may not interchange. If you like those states, maybe you should consider them for residence? My family was fishing here when there were still arrows to be dodged. And its TRAWLING. Trolling is what people do for bluefish.
5. I've spent a few nights on the decks of trawlers and channel net boats (do you know what a channel netter is?). Have you? If not, how is your guess so much more likely to be accurate than mine? I'm really curious.

Pardon me for my lack of spell checking, I must have come off pretty ignorant.
1. The gamefish have to eat something so whether you are reducing the prey base or reducing the actual predator is all has some effect. If a little speck dies and is eaten by a bigger one thus you are helping the bigger one survive...If that is truly the argument how can you discount the fact that the little one that died could have become a breeding member of the stock?

I am very away of the geographic differences associated with our coastline and the unique issues it presents to the situation. It is widely accepted that the inshore waters are critical nursery habitat regardless of the state. NC happens to have an abundance of this habitat, I was simply pointing out something that we do which other states have decided is not in the best interest of the resources.

I'm not in this topic to come after you but to only provoke a little thought on the topic and move the argument away from the "this is how we have always done it" mindset. It really doesn't help to be condescending and its probably why it's difficult to have a conversation with most folk because they make assumptions about the other side. To answer your question I have spent time on the deck trawling, setting channel nets (spot nets), checking pound nets, drift nets, gills nets, Ill even thrown in hoop netting, seine netting, throw net shrimping and even drug a plankton trawl. Some of this was done for recreation, some aboard research vessels, and some commercial, all which helped to accumulate hours for my captains licences. I do feel at least somewhat qualified to discuss this issue if that's what you were getting at.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
what I find interesting, on this topic and others (hunting, fishing, politics, etc) is the concept that if you weren't born and raised in XX area, you are the enemy,,,,,,,regardless of your stance on a subject,,,,,,

just a fascinating look into the human psychy,,,,,,,
 

23mako

Ten Pointer
what I find interesting, on this topic and others (hunting, fishing, politics, etc) is the concept that if you weren't born and raised in XX area, you are the enemy,,,,,,,regardless of your stance on a subject,,,,,,

just a fascinating look into the human psychy,,,,,,,

That is pretty common with commercial fishing interests in NC. They trace their lineage to the first natives who came over on the Alaskan land bridge. They also believe that they should have undisputed rights to harvest PUBLIC resources because their families have been doing it for decades.

I just find it amazing that we can build nuclear weapons, put a man on the moon, and invent something like the internet, but cannot find a way to catch shrimp with less bycatch.
 

Winnie 70

Ten Pointer
This discussion has been going on now since Feb. 17 and I would have thought that someone would have addressed the question as to what has happened to the surf fishing, especially the mullet fishing, on our coast the last 10 years or so. I fish the Topsail surf every fall since 15-18 years ago and could catch big mullet every fall October thru December, and now you can fish all day and nothing to show for it. Yet, you can go to Sneads Ferry and buy boxes of mullet brought in off the boats...have a friend that does it every fall to have fish fry at his local church. Makes fun of me fishing..wasting my time when I should go buy my fish. Serious, what has happened to the fishing on our coast. Can remember years ago the big spot and mullet runs every fall on the piers....went on for days...and now very small runs and over before it begins. I do know the trawlers are right off the end of the piers/coast all day in the fall and thought they had to be ????? further off coast. Understand this is a problem that has been getting larger every year and may be no answer for no one.
 

nchunt101

Ten Pointer
1. Gamefish are caught. No sportfishermen I've ever met gives a damn whether a spot or croaker gets caught, or a butterfish. They only pay attention when a drum, trout, flounder, or bluefish gets caught. I've never seen a drum in a tail bag. I'll not suggest they don't get caught, but I honestly have never seen a single one. Grey trout and speckled trout are not uncommon. Bluefish and Spanish are occasional. Small sharks like sandsharks. Flounders once in a while, it really depends on where you are. Most bycatch has a lot to do with where you are. Most of it is croakers, spots, butterfish, and the like. Gamefish is a fairly small proportion. But the fish that are caught as bycatch? Mostly small stuff, the size of your finger. When a speckled trout the size of your finger goes overboard dead, a keeper sized trout or drum may eat him in a flash. Just like as if he were alive and swimming.
2. That doesn't mean we are wrong or they are right. NC has a very unique coastline, if you haven't noticed. This isn't FL, LA, or VA. What works here or there may not interchange. If you like those states, maybe you should consider them for residence? My family was fishing here when there were still arrows to be dodged. And its TRAWLING. Trolling is what people do for bluefish.
5. I've spent a few nights on the decks of trawlers and channel net boats (do you know what a channel netter is?). Have you? If not, how is your guess so much more likely to be accurate than mine? I'm really curious.

I have been going to Harkers Island all my life (I assume you must be from around there) and have been on both channel net boats and trawlers. Every year I see fewer and fewer shrimp boats in front of the house and every year catch fewer flounder. What I have noticed is a hell of a lot more serious "recreational" flounder giggers. I feel your pain.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
This discussion has been going on now since Feb. 17 and I would have thought that someone would have addressed the question as to what has happened to the surf fishing, especially the mullet fishing, on our coast the last 10 years or so. I fish the Topsail surf every fall since 15-18 years ago and could catch big mullet every fall October thru December, and now you can fish all day and nothing to show for it. Yet, you can go to Sneads Ferry and buy boxes of mullet brought in off the boats...have a friend that does it every fall to have fish fry at his local church. Makes fun of me fishing..wasting my time when I should go buy my fish. Serious, what has happened to the fishing on our coast. Can remember years ago the big spot and mullet runs every fall on the piers....went on for days...and now very small runs and over before it begins. I do know the trawlers are right off the end of the piers/coast all day in the fall and thought they had to be ????? further off coast. Understand this is a problem that has been getting larger every year and may be no answer for no one.


yeap,,,,,basically why I quit going on our families (who came over before we were a country and were to lazy to move from NC!!) annual Oct / Nov pier fishing trips,,,,,it sure ain't like it was in the 80s or 90s,,,,,,,
 

FishHunt

Old Mossy Horns
I have been going to Harkers Island all my life (I assume you must be from around there) and have been on both channel net boats and trawlers. Every year I see fewer and fewer shrimp boats in front of the house and every year catch fewer flounder. What I have noticed is a hell of a lot more serious "recreational" flounder giggers. I feel your pain.

Truth!!!!!

I'm not the greatest saltwater fisherman but I've not had any trouble catching the gamefish I'm after from Portsmouth to the south end of Topsail. I have friends who guide recreational fishermen in these same waters and I never hear them openly or in private complain about not being able to put clients on fish.

<>< Fish
 

skimmer

Six Pointer
Just look at the public ramps in the coastal areas these days compared to 15-20yrs ago. There are MANY more rec fishermen than there used to be and when I look out the back door into North river on a summer night there isn't 1\4 of the trawlers that was out there working when I was a kid. Fwiw I catch just as many fish now as I ever have, no problem getting a days limit on trout/drum/flounder whatever. I guess there is more to it than just looking at chasin tails facebook page and stopping by on the way down to buy the latest "gear"
 

Mommicked

Guest
No problem in catching 6 legal flounder a day, hook in line? Wow, that's impressive.
There are quite a few guys who can. I see lots of guys who are really good fishermen. They've spent the time, know the water, and know the lures to use, the time of the tide to fish, and where. They come back to the dock with a limit plus fish thrown back.

And some folks (not unlike myself!) come home empty handed. It doesn't mean there isn't enough, some folks are much more skilled than others. I've seen time after time there will be a dozen recreational fishermen at a rock jetty, 1-2 boats catch a bunch of fish and leave while the rest of the boats spend all day there hardly getting a bite.

A magazine article, a few magic wonder lures, and a knot tying seminar by a renowned fishing guide does not a fisherman make! That's what makes it so interesting!!! :D
 

Mommicked

Guest
what I find interesting, on this topic and others (hunting, fishing, politics, etc) is the concept that if you weren't born and raised in XX area, you are the enemy,,,,,,,regardless of your stance on a subject,,,,,,

just a fascinating look into the human psychy,,,,,,,
My ancestors have been here since before the Revolutionary War. For those historically challenged, that was started in 1776. We were here before that. Both sides of my family. I've seen folks move here with money, throw it around trying to change everything we coastal natives hold dear, and when they die of old age, their kids squabble over who they want to sell the property to next, because none of them want to live here. But here we live still, because to us, this isn't a place we've come to. It's not someplace we discovered one weekend. This is our HOME. Because it's our home, we cherish it.

We were born here, raised here. While most of us are flag waving Americans, we do have a slightly different culture. Our accent often sets us apart as soon as we open our mouths. We aren't trying to be different, it's a part of who we are. We are the direct descendants of the men and women who braved mosquitoes, gators, disease, snakes, Spanish attacks, and hardship, not to mention the Indians (some of whom we married). We fought for this land and made it ours, and we are the descendants of those quiet, determined, hard working tenacious folk. Our ancestors are buried here, and our children and grandchildren will call this home as well.

Because we have been here so long, and because we do indeed call this HOME (and thus have an honest right to do so, not just a piece of paper from the courthouse saying we own it, but a birthright), we have a good feel on what works and what doesn't, and we have a very sincere interest in what the environment is like, because we feel it's ours and our children's.

So when someone from elsewhere comes in with all these big ideas about what we should and shouldn't be allowed to do in our own backyards, YES, we will get incensed. Because we've seen them come in with their big ideas, mess things all up, and die off, leaving the land to other folks from elsewhere who don't understand it much better.

I'm not some sage old Indian guide with a crystal ball who understands every single nuance of the environment, but I've learned some basic things that scientists don't seem to get or pass on to other folks.

1. We're nearly the northern extent of the range of the speckled trout. When we have a cold hard winter, the next year's trout fishing sucks, because many trout die cold stunned after a freeze, no matter whether locals scoop them up to sell or gulls eat them. When it freezes, trout float and something eats them, and the next fall their are fewer trout to catch. When we have a warm winter, the next fall's fishing tends to be better. Think on this one a tad bit.
2. There are good seasons and bad seasons for almost every critter I've tried to chase, from shrimp to swan to deer. Nature seems to have cycles, and, I'm not big enough to try to change all of that. I'll just roll with the punches instead of thinking I'm God or a scientist. And we're very hesitant to trust those who DO think they have moved here and figured it all out in 2-3 years.
3. I've met quite a few research scientists. Fish biologist, marine research technicians. Some of them have good sense, but some of them can't tie their own shoe laces, nor could they figure out how to empty a boot full of yellow water with the instructions printed on the heel. Some are quite brilliant. More than a few "HAVE AN AGENDA BEHIND THIER RESEARCH BEFORE THEY EVEN BEGIN". I've seen political folks throw money at getting scientists to research things 'their way' more than once, and that's no fish story. Research studies often do have a political agenda behind them! So, take scientific results with a little grain of salt. Sometimes, they deliberately cook the books, and sometimes they don't even know half the story.
4. I like fresh local shrimp, and the folks who's livelihood depends on them deserve to be able to make a living. Restricting them to 3 days a week, daylight only, and 45 minute tows doesn't help the little guy, the fish dealer, or the restaurant where you might enjoy a plate of shrimp. Keeping big trawlers out of inside waters (90' headrope length) might help more than any of the rest of what I've heard. But only letting the little guy go out 3 days a week, during daylight hours only, will wreck him. The big boats CAN make it in the ocean. The little boats scattered all around Pamlico Sound? They aren't even big enough to make it TO the ocean, let alone shrimp there if they did. A guy in Hobucken would spend a day just getting to the ocean from his home dock!
5. Shrimpers working during daylight hours will crowd recreational fishermen more than at night. What time of day do you rod and reel fish? Let shrimpers have the night hours if they need them. Then you're more likely to fish during the day without being in each other's way! Think about the simplicity of this one for a second?
6. Scallops are way down, and we think it's because of the massive schools of skates that have arisen in the last few years. They're like underwater locusts, and they wipe out the scallop population when they come through. Large oceanic sharks are the main predator of these skates, and the practice of finning has dropped the offshore shark numbers to my understanding.
7. Oysters are critical for water quality. An 83 year old man from Harkers Island was telling me yesterday that in the 1940's you could easily see bottom in 3-4' of water. No more. He says there's too many boats on the water these days. Everywhere I look at boat ramps there are more recreational boats than ever before, and the number and size of the ramps has exploded since my childhood in the late 70's-80's. Exponentially. There are fewer oysters (I'll admit, probably overfishing, but oystering isn't done like it used to be, and most of the oystermen I know are going for a few bushels, not a big boat loaded down) and more boats than ever before.
8. The crabs will start moving around Feb, bluefish usually in April, cobia will show up in May/June, mullets will run in Oct/Nov, no matter who is president of the US or the NCDMF. Time and tide wait for no man. We aren't big enough to change all of that.
9. If you're still reading this, you're either bored or really like the sound of my voice. Have a good day, and go catch what you can. It's your God given right. Just don't take more than you can use, and take a kid with you. Somebody took you, right?
 

Mommicked

Guest
That is pretty common with commercial fishing interests in NC. They trace their lineage to the first natives who came over on the Alaskan land bridge. They also believe that they should have undisputed rights to harvest PUBLIC resources because their families have been doing it for decades.

I just find it amazing that we can build nuclear weapons, put a man on the moon, and invent something like the internet, but cannot find a way to catch shrimp with less bycatch.
My ancestors DID come here before this was a nation, helped build such nation, and have inhabited this land ever since. You're just jealous! :D

As to having undisputed rights, every time commercial fishing comes up, someone who weekends here wants to TAKE AWAY the rights we have enjoyed for years. Why don't you get some scientists to work on a plan to help you catch more fish that doesn't take away the rights to use the public resource from someone else? That would be a good use of science.
 
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