Gray wolves hammer elk in Yellowstone NP

Although elk numbers before wolf reintroduction in 1995 hit about 19,000, they have since plummeted to what has become a new normal of about 4,800.

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http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outd...-cougars-hang-tough-despite-wolf-impacts-elk/

They using claw or ball pein hammers?

Don't know but woof reintroduction out west was a bad idea imho.

Finally you and I agree on something, you for post count, me because I see wolves poised to destroy a favorite place of mine and one of the prettiest places on Earth.
I go to Oregon alot and the wolves are already impacting the deer and elk herds there.
Soon it will be like Yellowstone NP, nice views of grassy river bottoms without any wildlife to speak of, deer, elk and moose all but gone.
Thanks woof lovers.

I think we will see a balance struck. Look at it biologically not from the perspective have having a ton of elk on the landscape. The elk have been predator free for a long time and have not had to deal with the pressure. Calving grounds shifted to open areas, herds were not adapted to the threat ect. From a natural stand point this is a normal reaction to an introduced predator, but a historically natural predator. Habits will shift and the population will find balance which may or may not agree with how many of each you think should be there. The same thing would happen if they started to allow hunting in Yellowstone. The animals would learn pretty quick that hanging out around all those cars and roads doesn't end well.

Wildlifer said:

I think we will see a balance struck. Look at it biologically not from the perspective have having a ton of elk on the landscape. The elk have been predator free for a long time and have not had to deal with the pressure. Calving grounds shifted to open areas, herds were not adapted to the threat ect. From a natural stand point this is a normal reaction to an introduced predator, but a historically natural predator. Habits will shift and the population will find balance which may or may not agree with how many of each you think should be there. The same thing would happen if they started to allow hunting in Yellowstone. The animals would learn pretty quick that hanging out around all those cars and roads doesn't end well.

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I agree that we need a balance of predators in all wildlife populations......BUT.....when you introduce a non-native wolf that is at least twice the size of historical wolf populations, you upset the balance.
The gray wolf that was native to the west [prior to the settlers wiping them out] was not the Yukon wolf that they transplanted in Yellowstone. It was similar to the Mexican gray wolf in size {big 65 pound coyote instead of of a 200 pound Yukon wolf}.
Anyone interested, do some research about the ravages of the Yukon wolves as they spread out of Yellowstone over the last 15+/- years.
Use LOCAL news archives only and you will see that these wolves are as CRC says, a bad idea.

I tend to agree that the Wolves of Minnesota might have been a better suit biologically and that they could adapt to the new terrain over using wolves from Canada that are 30% larger and adapted to the terrain. Studies show they the predicted impacts were underestimated largely due to the the efficiency of the wolves used. I think wolves should be there for multiple reason just maybe not the ones used. On that note i still think a balance will be struck, I don't see the wolves eating themselves out of house and home. They are density dependent by nature so its a natural biological limit. The ups and downs of finding the balance are not pretty and some management would help even that out. The first step would be to effectively delist them to let the management happen.

The way I have always seen it is that there was an overabundance of pray animals running around Yellowstone before the wolves were brought back. To me the wolves stabilized the elk herd and prevented overgrazing. I have always understood that the Elk population was getting out of control and devastating the landscape.
Nature will find a happy medium between predator and prey if given enough time. When the elk population gets low enough you will see the wolf population drop as well. If that has not happened yet then maybe 4800 elk is all a healthy ecosystem can support.

Those wolves just move, OR-7 famously ranged thousands of miles.
The impacts will NEVER be stopped since most of the west is politically controlled by the big cities full of Dem voters, anti-hunters and PETA folks.
Take a week or two and spend it in Oregon and Washington and you will see what
I'm talking about.
Or you could just look at what the USFWS has done with non-native predators here in NC.
Multiply that by thousands of times the area and that is the western onslaught of Yukon wolves.

shadycove said:

Those wolves just move, OR-7 famously ranged thousands of miles.
The impacts will NEVER be stopped since most of the west is politically controlled by the big cities full of Dem voters, anti-hunters and PETA folks.
Take a week or two and spend it in Oregon and Washington and you will see what
I'm talking about.
Or you could just look at what the USFWS has done with non-native predators here in NC.
Multiply that by thousands of times the area and that is the western onslaught of Yukon wolves.

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So you would rather see an overpopulation of elk and the habitat of Yellowstone destroyed than have a natural predator keep it in check? Keep in mind we are talking about Yellowstone here not Oregon or Washington.

The powers that were in charge of the woof program in Yellowstone needed a predator that they thought could lower the population of American bison.
The historic gray wolf could not do this so they went with the Yukon wolves in the mindset that Yukon wolves could take out the overpopulation of bison. News flash: the Yukon wolves cannot kill bison in numbers large enough to have any effect on their population.
They opened Pandoras box and we now have a mess out there.
And as far as 4800 elk being enough for Yellowstone, you must have never been there.

Every wolf in Idaho,Oregon and Washington came from Yellowstone as well as most of them in Montana. Either on foot or thru ancestry plus some that were illegally transported into those states and released.
Further, there is a huge amount of money spent on hiking, biking, skiing, camping, fishing and hunting in these two states. With the advent of wolf packs there is going to be a huge drop in all of those activities.
You would not know since you haven't slept in those woods, with those wolves, I have.
I spent several nights this summer in some of the areas of S/W Oregon with the highest population of wolves.
These ARE NOT native wolves, so any idea of "balance or natural" is BS.
If they were "natural" they would be thousands of miles north.

I respectfully disagree that at anytime the bison population was a factor that got the wheels turning to reintroduce wolves. The NPS had been trying to control the elk population for decades without much success and the ecosystem was suffering.
I also highly doubt that any outdoor activity is going to suffer from wolves in any of those states. How many deaths/attacks have been recorded in the US from wolves in the past 100 years? I believe it is 2 in the lower 48. Not a fraction of that of bears and they dont keep people from going into the wilderness.

I have been to Yellowstone 3 times flyfishing. Camped in the back-country for a total of 15 nights. Never once was I concerned about wolves. Bears, yes, very much so. I cant speak of the situation in Oregon as I have never done any back-county camping out there. However, there has never been a documented wolf attack in Oregon. I would worry much more about a large cat.

I have been to Yellowstone 3 times flyfishing. Camped in the back-country for a total of 15 nights. Never once was I concerned about wolves. Bears, yes, very much so. I cant speak of the situation in Oregon as I have never done any back-county camping out there. However, there has never been a documented wolf attack in Oregon. I would worry much more about a large cat.
How long ago?
In the last 10 years I have spent nights totaling more than a month in the wilds of the Cascade Mountains and several nights in the Rockies of Montana. Only had trouble with bears once, no other trouble but I am sure that I have been stalked by bears and mountain lions many times. You can handle stuff like this in the woods but you cannot handle crawling out of a tent to face 5-10 wolves.
Folks know this and they just don't go the places where wolf packs are.
Trying to crunch the numbers lost days of outdoor pursuits is not easy yet but some folks are working on it out there now.

How long ago?

Fist time was in 95' and last time was 06'

Would not want to come face to face with a wolf or wolves in close proximity in the wild for sure. I have never had issues with bears out west only once in the mountains here and it was my fault. Only seen Black Bears never Grizzlies. Saw prints so we knew they were around though. Still I feel safer in the wilderness than most places around the city.

A lot of variables involved. It's not always as simple as predator and prey.

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/may/16-elk-vanishing-act

And before I get asked, yes I've been there. Hope to take the family this summer. First animal I saw in the park was a Grizzly.

Quackman said:

I respectfully disagree that at anytime the bison population was a factor that got the wheels turning to reintroduce wolves. The NPS had been trying to control the elk population for decades without much success and the ecosystem was suffering.
I also highly doubt that any outdoor activity is going to suffer from wolves in any of those states. How many deaths/attacks have been recorded in the US from wolves in the past 100 years? I believe it is 2 in the lower 48. Not a fraction of that of bears and they dont keep people from going into the wilderness.

I have been to Yellowstone 3 times flyfishing. Camped in the back-country for a total of 15 nights. Never once was I concerned about wolves. Bears, yes, very much so. I cant speak of the situation in Oregon as I have never done any back-county camping out there. However, there has never been a documented wolf attack in Oregon. I would worry much more about a large cat.

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You might want to talk to some of the lion/bear outfitters in the surrounding states around that place. Several have been put out of business over the years after having their whole pack of hounds wiped out by wolves and were unable to replace them while going through the red tape to get repaid for them, all this while they were on the endangered list. A pack depending on how many can cost in the $25-50K range.

Now at least they are off that list and they are thinning them out and able to offer hunts for them now also.

wolfman said:

A lot of variables involved. It's not always as simple as predator and prey.

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/may/16-elk-vanishing-act

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Written by a woof lover.
From the comments on this link:
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Guest • 2 years ago
Cute fairy tale wolves are to blame. First off the beaver did not magically return to Yellowstone due to wolves. It is a fraud from Doug Smith NPS. That is right Doug Smith a liar and wolf pimp hired trappers to live trap 129 beaver. A big waste of tax dollars then the liar and fraud had the beaver packed in to the Yellowstone drainage and dump off at tax payers expense. When the beaver magically show up in Yellowstone the corrupt Doug Smith made a video and said see the wolves are magically fairies and the beaver returned. He should be brought up on Federal charges for fraud corruption and wasting tax payers money. Next wolves kill most of the elk in the winter time. Scott Creel study show wolves target elk from November to April. During this 6 month period wolves on the average killed 23 to 26 elk per wolf. So to blame it on bears is another cute little fairy tale. In case people have forgotten bears hibernated during the winter. The LOLO elk study in Idaho showed the same problem wolves were the #1 cause of elk being slaughtered in fact, poachers, legal hunters, bears and mt lion only made up a little over 1/4 of the elk killed. Wolves killed the other 3/4 of the elk. To say wolves running in packs of 10 on the average are not wiping out the elk is living in a childish fairy tale land. Wolves are the problem anyone that can read a science report knows the facts. SO STOP PIMPING the fraud that wolves are not to blame for the elk being wiped out. Let's deal with facts and leave the fairy tales, fraud and corruption out of it. I am surprise that Discover magazine is so incompetent they can't even find the truth or is they refuse to show all the facts and want to keep people in fairy tale dream land of wolves are good. Hire a real reporter to actually research the truth next time and leave the fairy tales for children books.
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This is the way that the outdoor locals feel about the wolves and his info is spot on/true in my personal, been there opinion.
The woof lovers don't say anything about all of the wooded mountains in 4-5 states that have had/are having huge crashes in their elk herds with no help from grizzly bears, beavers, climate change or any other predator except the Yukon gray wolf.
The woods up there are seeing fewer and fewer visitors during both summer camping season and winter snow play seasons. This IMO, will be the end of the Yukon wolf in the Pacific N/W due to the economic impact.
State management is near.

Here are some stats since wolves have been reintroduced in Yellowstone.

Year Elk Population
2013 2,083 with not a single calf surviving.

2012 3,915

2011 4,174

2010 4,635

2009 6,070

2008 6,279

2007 6,738

2006 6,588

2005 9,545

2004 8,335

2003-02 9,215

2001 11,969

2000 13,400 (prior to late season elk hunt)

1999 14,538 (prior to late season elk hunt)

1998 11,742

1997 no count taken

1996 no count taken

1995 16,791 (when wolf reintroduction began)

1994 19,045 (year before wolf reintroduction)

nccatfisher said:

Here are some stats since wolves have been reintroduced in Yellowstone.

Year Elk Population
2013 2,083 with not a single calf surviving.

2012 3,915

2011 4,174

2010 4,635

2009 6,070

2008 6,279

2007 6,738

2006 6,588

2005 9,545

2004 8,335

2003-02 9,215

2001 11,969

2000 13,400 (prior to late season elk hunt)

1999 14,538 (prior to late season elk hunt)

1998 11,742

1997 no count taken

1996 no count taken

1995 16,791 (when wolf reintroduction began)

1994 19,045 (year before wolf reintroduction)

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NOT A SINGLE CALF survived?!?!?!? Ummm, I'm pretty sure there is stuff in the Bible about things like that. It's a page turner for sure, but the end result is not something I want to see.

If not a single calf survived, then we can't say it's a balance of nature. It's obviously gone long past that. Something is way out of whack.

NCST8GUY said:

NOT A SINGLE CALF survived?!?!?!? Ummm, I'm pretty sure there is stuff in the Bible about things like that. It's a page turner for sure, but the end result is not something I want to see.

If not a single calf survived, then we can't say it's a balance of nature. It's obviously gone long past that. Something is way out of whack.

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Numbers like that it won't be long an they will have to see alternative sources of food. Most likely that will be domestic stock.

nccatfisher said:

Numbers like that it won't be long an they will have to see alternative sources of food. Most likely that will be domestic stock.

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Isn't that kind of how it started before the wolves zeroed in on Yellowstone?

As a kid I remember Dan Rather on Dave Letterman griping (near about using curse words) about the release of wolves onto Yellowstone. Guess where Dan Rather owned a ranch? (I'm too tired to google all of that, but it happened).


The wolves found the "easy" prey first, then, AFTER the ranchers wisened up defenses, the baby elk in the Yellowstone became the easy prey.