"Red Wolf" restoration scandal

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Mike Noles aka conman

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Is there any kind of timeline on these possibilities? For those of us not in the know, but whom care?

Not really, Brian. It's the proverbial cash cow of the wild canid world. But, there's a monumental reason why there's no prosecution if one is killed "accidentally " on private property as long as regulatory obligations are fulfilled. That logic will, in my opinion, become the straw that rescinds the ESA protection.
 

ellwoodjake

Twelve Pointer
No timeline at all. The government is notorious for moving at a glacial pace. Anyone who has ever been involved with the court system has first hand knowledge of this.
 

Jett

Ten Pointer
Neil is being wise, as should the entire pro/con contingent of this thing. Ultimately, science will have to prevail.

Unfortunately, politics will prevail. Hillary equals more woofs. Trump equals no woofs.

One thing is for certain, truth and integrity have been grossly sacrificed by USFWS so the NGO's can continue to profiteer on the back of a make believe manufactured woof.
 
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Mike Noles aka conman

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I agree that both the USFWS and the NCWRC have lost their credibility to all involved in this thing. I still think that science will ultimately resolve this. If not, you, of all people, know my stance, Jett.
 

Jett

Ten Pointer
I agree that both the USFWS and the NCWRC have lost their credibility to all involved in this thing. I still think that science will ultimately resolve this. If not, you, of all people, know my stance, Jett.

Yes I do.:greenjump:
That new Wayne study gives an entirely new meaning to "I thought it was a coyote".
 

ellwoodjake

Twelve Pointer
I'm with you guys. As far as I'm concerned, science has ALREADY resolved it. Any remaining questions will have to be taken up by the courts. While the USFWS, NCWRC and numerous NGOs are busy with politics, local citizens and horny coyotes will mop up the rest. Any legislation or attempts to tweek the ESA will come too late, due to our glacial legislative process.
 

M73

Button Buck
Classy Jett and friends showing their true colors promoting the illegal shooting of red wolves. What a group of true sportsmen.

Yes I do.:greenjump:
That new Wayne study gives an entirely new meaning to "I thought it was a coyote".
 

M73

Button Buck
I do have a question though based on these articles coming out ... have you guys (and girls) actually read the 2011 vonHoldt et al. paper, the Rutledge et al. rebuttal and the new paper. Actually read them - not the articles with authors struggling to undersand what the papers really say and missing the mark in many cases?
 

Mike Noles aka conman

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Classy Jett and friends showing their true colors promoting the illegal shooting of red wolves. What a group of true sportsmen.

There's nothing illegal if a animal that is classified as NEP is accidentally shot on private property during a legal hunting season. What's illegal is to specifically hunt for that animal. There's a given procedure for what to do if an animal is shot and the hunter suspects it's something other than a coyote. I, for one, don't have that problem as I've been told that there are no red wolves or hybrids on any of my properties. Thus, I shoot all I can put the crosshairs on.

To your other questions, yes, I've read the entire publication of most papers referenced.

Now, questions for you. 1) Can you readily identify a "red wolf" vs a coyote at any significant range moving through brush or forest? (Let's make it easy, say 100 yards)
2) Have you read the publications and are you capable of understanding or interpreting what a multitude of opposing "experts" are writing?
 
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BR549

Twelve Pointer
Classy Jett and friends showing their true colors promoting the illegal shooting of red wolves. What a group of true sportsmen.

To expand on Jett & Mikes comments, the DOI issued a memo dated Febuary 4, 2008. The Department stated that they would no longer pursue ESA cases where they could not prove the defendant knew what species they were harming.

The level of burden placed on the Department relative to "Know" is defined as the perpetrator knew the "Biological Identity" prior to an alleged illegal take.

The Department was specifically instructed by a particular Judge to NOT bring another case foward unless the Department could prove the shooter of an endangered wolf "Knowingly Knew the Biological Identity" of the wolf prior to the occurrence or take.

This is precisely why you see the Service failing to pursue any gunshot Red Wolf cases.
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
But what about when someone shot's a wolf while the coyote season is closed. They couldn't just say I thought it was a coyote then. Seems they wont pursue any case. Maybe because no red wolves have ever been in or killed in N.C. Seems only the wolf peeps believe there is a true "red wolf" anywhere.
 
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BR549

Twelve Pointer
"Red Wolf" restoration scandal

Certainly many have gleaned lots from the management of the Red Wolf program.

One issue I find of great interest is Adaptive Management (coyote sterilization / releases) and the scientific effects it has on Sea-Turtle Nesting Habit.

The legal lines, Adaptive Management has crossed are most interesting...



54b378a414c25fb7aa8f06ff22c5c87f.png




http://forum.citizensscience.org/index.php/topic,443.msg851.html#msg851
 
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Jett

Ten Pointer
Genome Wide DNA Study Released 7/27/16 Has Defined The Red Wolf As A Hybrid Canine Not Protected By The ESA

"The team concludes that neither the red nor the eastern wolf is a species. Instead, they suggest that both are hybrid populations that arose after Europeans arrived in North America, when gray wolves that managed to survive hunting and habitat loss mixed with expanding populations of coyotes. Theres nothing in their genome thats not gray wolf or coyote, says co-author Robert Wayne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Los Angeles."

The actual study released 7/27/16:
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/7/e1501714.full

Countless articles about the study:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2099192-red-wolf-may-lose-endangered-status-because-its-just-a-hybrid/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/science/red-eastern-gray-wolves.html

https://audioboom.com/boos/4871801-the-red-wolf-is-mostly-coyote

http://www.popsci.com/research-on-ancestry-red-eastern-wolves-questions-protected-status-possible-hybrids

http://www.pulseheadlines.com/american-wolves-are-hybrids-part-gray-wolf-part-coyote/44289/

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-red-wolf-is-mostly-coyote-conservation-endangered

http://www.aaas.org/news/north-american-wolves-ancestry-complicates-conservation

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2099192-red-wolf-may-lose-endangered-status-because-its-just-a-hybrid/

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.n...ed-eastern-gray-wolves.amp.html?client=safari

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-red-wolf-is-mostly-coyote-conservation-endangered

http://wildlife.org/supposed-wolf-species-may-actually-be-hybrids/

http://www.latimes.com/science/scie...-20160727-snap-story-20160727-snap-story.html

http://www.newsy-today.com/scientis...lf-species-in-north-america-orlando-sentinel/

https://news.google.com.hk/news/more?ncl=d8uD76px9VKTBUMWZaUgklhPXm5jM&authuser=0&ned=us&topic=snc

"The team concludes that neither the red nor the eastern wolf is a species. Instead, they suggest that both are hybrid populations that arose after Europeans arrived in North America, when gray wolves that managed to survive hunting and habitat loss mixed with expanding populations of coyotes. Theres nothing in their genome thats not gray wolf or coyote, says co-author Robert Wayne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Los Angeles."

http://www.newscaf.com/science/how-do-you-save-a-wolf-that-s-not_558836.html

http://www.regaltribune.com/one-genuine-wolf-species/26964/
 
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Mike Noles aka conman

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In reading these articles, everyone must be keenly aware of the primary DNA of the "threatened or endangered" species. That's the gray wolf DNA. Although the current ESA ruling is not/does not word it's protection for hybrids, there will be arguments that can be scientifically supported that ANY wild canid that carries the gray wolf DNA can be/should be listed as threatened. Read these articles carefully. Dr. Wayne and his study group offer this very thing.

The things that will be interesting to watch in eastern NC are; 1) How soon canis oriens (the new coywolf species ID) is identified in the area. I think it's already prevalent just north of the Albemarle Sound and will soon add to the genetic diversity (hybridization) of the existing "red wolf" population. 2) Even if there is a release of more captive bred "red wolves", how will genetic integrity be maintained with the coyote explosion in this area? 3) With the many contradictions of identification of these animals and coyote/wolf intrusions already being documented as destructive of other endangered species, which species will take precedence? 4) What's going to be done about the habitat destruction of the "red wolf" by the PLNWR on refuge lands in Washington, Tyrrell and Hyde counties? 5)IF the program survives, who's going to manage it and what will be the allowed intrusion of the federal government on private landowners.
 

Jett

Ten Pointer
Fwd: Weekly update

From: Jett Ferebee <jettferebee@xxxx>

To: xxxxxxxx>; pete_benjamin <pete_benjamin@fws.gov>xxxxxxxx>; xxxxxxxxxx>; cynthia_dohner <cynthia_dohner@fws.gov>; leopoldo_miranda <leopoldo_miranda@fws.gov>; xxxxxx>; d_m_ashe <d_m_ashe@fws.gov>;

Cc: lesley.lawrence-hammer <lesley.lawrence-hammer@usdoj.gov>; jeremy.hessler <jeremy.hessler@usdoj.gov>; michelle-ann.williams <michelle-ann.williams@usdoj.gov>; neal.fowler <neal.fowler@usdoj.gov>; michael.anderson7 <michael.anderson7@usdoj.gov>;

Date: Thu, Aug 18, 2016 10:40 pm

Pete and xxxx,

Yes Pete, "Looks like not much has changed." is exactly the problem.

xxxx, xxxxxx and myself have all requested to have your canids removed from our land yet once again. Your experiment with the GPS collars proved exactly what we all new. Neither the "placeholder coyotes" nor the USFWS "wolves" will stay on the flooded USFWS Refuge land. These animals returned back to the private lands where they were trapped at our expense, almost immediately.

What is the status of our second request to have these animals removed from our private land, please? I realize the DOJ attorneys for USFWS told Judge Boyle in Federal Court that USFWS had no removal requests and had no intention of removing any wolves. This statement was absolutely false and is in direct conflict with the 1995 Rules governing the red wolf program.

On June 22, USFWS DOJ attorneys filed this in Federal Court :

"As you are aware, the Service previously told Plaintiffs that it has no intention or plan to issue any
take authorizations pursuant to 50 C.F.R. § 17.84(c)(4)(v) during the pendency of this district
court case. See Attached 3/16/16 Letter."

"Since this litigation began, the Service has issued no take authorizations pursuant to 50 C.F.R. §
17.84(c)(4)(v). Furthermore, there are no pending requests for take authorizations from private
landowners to which the Service could even respond at this time."


"the Service has no current plan or intention to issue any take authorizations or to remove any wolves
pursuant to 50 C.F.R. §§ 17.84(c)(4)(v) or (c)(10)"



BUT, the 1995 Federal Rules 50 CFR Part 17 state this:

"Therefore, the special rule is modified to provide that ALL landowner requests to remove wolves from their property will be honored"


Again, I ask you, what is the status of your efforts to remove these animals?

Thanks,
Jett
252 714 2774


-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin, Pete <pete_benjamin@fws.gov>
To: xxxxxxxxx; Jett Ferebee <jettferebee@xxxcom>; xxxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2016 3:49 pm
Subject: Weekly update

Hi guys,

Attached are the weekly update maps. Looks like not much has changed.

Pete Benjamin
Field Supervisor
Raleigh ES Field Office
Office: (919) 856-4520 x 11
Mobile: (919) 816-6408

816wolf.jpg


816coyote.jpg
 
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LIVIT

Four Pointer
I work in Federal Law Enforcement and also have a partial Degree in Wildlife Biology that I got so I could be have more knowledge in the outdoors. I am not one to promote breaking the laws BUT, lf I was a landowner dealing with this, there would not be a need for trapping on my property for long. I would eliminate the problem personally ! There are laws that allow for the protection of your livestock and pets, I would put that to a thorough use rapidly. I do wish you the best and tks for taking such a strong and very Long stand on this issue..... DJ
 

Mike Noles aka conman

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I'm guessing that this is the month that the USFWS and NCWRC are supposed to finalize their respective agendas on the issue and tell us what the plan for the future is..(if there's even going to be a plan :rolleyes:)
 

hunter

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I'm guessing that this is the month that the USFWS and NCWRC are supposed to finalize their respective agendas on the issue and tell us what the plan for the future is..(if there's even going to be a plan :rolleyes:)

I don't know if I would expect much coming out of this in support of private landowners and hunters in eastern NC. Seems like the USFWS and the WRC has a pretty cozy relationship. I saw where they had presented the WRC director with an award this year for working together, etc. Partly for giving what looks like free housing to USFWS employees at the WRC HQ. Oddly enough, the head of that office is the director's buddy and former number 2 guy at the wrc. See this link and look under staff: http://www.southatlanticlcc.org/contact/

So does that mean my hunting and fishing license costs are paying for the USFWS? If so it looks like the WRC folks have some awful mixed loyalties.....
 
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Mike Noles aka conman

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I don't know if I would expect much coming out of this in support of private landowners and hunters in eastern NC. Seems like the USFWS and the WRC has a pretty cozy relationship. I saw where they had presented the WRC director with an award this year for working together, etc. Partly for giving what looks like free housing to USFWS employees at the WRC HQ. Oddly enough, the head of that office is the director's buddy and former number 2 guy at the wrc. See this link and look under staff: http://www.southatlanticlcc.org/contact/

So does that mean my hunting and fishing license costs are paying for the USFWS? If so it looks like the WRC folks have some awful mixed loyalties.....

Mal is a good guy and I don't think he would do anything that's against the landowners and sportsmen of NC. There's speculation that some of the NCWRC upper staff is being "courted" by the USFWS with the possibility of federal jobs and if true, the cozy relationship that you mentioned could very well be the reason. I really could not care as long as this animal does not move from a NEP to an endangered species in it's listing for North Carolina private lands.
 

hunter

Eight Pointer
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It definitely would be very bad for them to move to an endangered species in eastern NC. Especially with the whole "species" part being in doubt. It does seem odd that a top person at WRC who has been in the middle of the wolf mess would end up working for the USFWS though.....

Thank you for your insights Mike! I know you and several others on here have a personal stake in this where a lot of the rest of us are a bit removed from it. Hopefully it will work out for the best.

Hunter
 
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