NCWRC studies antler restrictions for deer

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
At their May 2009 meeting, the Big Game Committee of the Wildlife Resources Commission (WRC) directed the Division of Wildlife Management (DWM) biological staff to examine the potential for implementation of an antlered buck harvest criterion of > 4 points on one antler (i.e. 4 point rule) DWM staff have reviewed available research to access the current knowledge on selective harvest criteria (SHC) and consulted with wildlife biologists in other states to evaluate regulations those states have implemented.
 
creekhobo

creekhobo

Ten Pointer
enhanced-buzz-22462-1378494641-20_zpsd5qjprwd.jpg
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
wncdeerhunter said:
Jesus Christ. This was 6 years ago. Give it a rest.
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The study basically said a 4 points to a rule could work in NC. The NCWRC is going to implement it on game lands. Its just a question of which game lands and how to enforce it.

Apparently at the deer management meetings this year hunters were loud and clear some game lands should be managed for mature deer and not for folks who shoot everything and anything.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
The study basically said a 4 points to a rule could work in NC. The NCWRC is going to implement it on game lands. Its just a question of which game lands and how to enforce it.

Apparently at the deer management meetings this year hunters were loud and clear some game lands should be managed for mature deer and not for folks who shoot everything and anything.
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What is 4 points to a rule? LOL
 
Ldsoldier

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
CRC said:
The study basically said a 4 points to a rule could work in NC. The NCWRC is going to implement it on game lands. Its just a question of which game lands and how to enforce it.

Apparently at the deer management meetings this year hunters were loud and clear some game lands should be managed for mature deer and not for folks who shoot everything and anything.
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It works great if your goal is a high graded herd…shoot nothing but 7 and 8 pointers long enough and you start seeing a lot of 6 pointers…
 
nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC is going to go down in history. He most likely will single-handedly set back deer management in NC years by alienating more folks that otherwise may have been open to the idea by his inept attempts at forcing his ideas on everyone. When it is actually brought up where it does count they will be sick of hearing it.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Ldsoldier said:
It works great if your goal is a high graded herd…shoot nothing but 7 and 8 pointers long enough and you start seeing a lot of 6 pointers…
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Not quite.

Impacts of Antler Restrictions on Wildlife Management Areas in Florida
James D. Kelly, Erin H. Leone, Cory R. Morea, Elina P. Garrison – Florida Fish
and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Over the last decade, Antler Point Restrictions (APRs) have been implemented on a number of
Florida’s Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs) in response to the increasing demand from
hunters for this type of hunting opportunity on public lands. Harvest data collected on 23
WMAs over 5 regions, pre- and post-implementation, were analyzed to understand the impacts
of APR’s (i.e., at least three points on one side) on antlered deer harvest and antler quality. We
compared changes in the proportions of age-classes at harvest, average weight, antler quality
by age-class, and harvest per hunter effort (HPE). There was a significant decrease in the
proportion of 1.5 year-old bucks in the harvest after APRs were enacted (p=0.0569). This effect
was consistent across all 5 regions, but there were no differences for any other age class.
Average weight increased post-implementation (p=0.0001), an effect which was consistent
across regions. Predicted gross B&C scores also changed as a result of the APRs (p=0.0495);
they increased post-implementation for the 2.5 and 3.5 year-old age-classes, but remained
unchanged for the youngest (1.5) and oldest (4.5+) age-classes. There was a general decrease in
HPE post-implementation (p=0.0039), however this differed by region (p=0.0753). HPE
appeared to decrease in the Southwest, Northwest, and Northeast regions, there were no
discernible differences in the North Central and South regions. We conclude that APRs on
Florida WMAs are effective at protecting the 1.5 year-old age-class, and there is no evidence
thus far of a negative impact on antler quality (i.e., high-grading
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wncdeerhunter

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
For someone who does not even hunt deer in NC, you sure have a lot of opinions on how things could be done better.

Kind of like if you don't vote, you aren't entitled to an opinion on how the elections turn out.

You lack experience and credibility on your subject matter.
 
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Ldsoldier

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
I notice there's no mention of time-frame there. It takes a few decades to see the results from high-grading, but the results are predictable. It works great the first few years, as less young bucks are shot and get to grow older. Over time, however, nature responds. The bucks that grow larger racks earlier die earlier. Nature is all about survival, remember? Those bucks with smaller racks survive longer and do more breeding, eventually saturating the population with their genetics. The big bucks can't do anything about it because, well, they get shot a full year or 2 earlier than the little ones. Eventually you have no big bucks because they all get killed. This is basic evolutionary biology…

(For the record, wncdeerhunter posted while I was typing, my response was to CRC)
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Ldsoldier said:
I notice there's no mention of time-frame there. It takes a few decades to see the results from high-grading, but the results are predictable. It works great the first few years, as less young bucks are shot and get to grow older. Over time, however, nature responds. The bucks that grow larger racks earlier die earlier. Nature is all about survival, remember? Those bucks with smaller racks survive longer and do more breeding, eventually saturating the population with their genetics. The big bucks can't do anything about it because, well, they get shot a full year or 2 earlier than the little ones. Eventually you have no big bucks because they all get killed. This is basic evolutionary biology…

(For the record, wncdeerhunter posted while I was typing, my response was to CRC)
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Good info but would that apply if a limited quota hunt was set up as well limiting the number of bucks also?
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
For someone who does not even hunt deer in NC,
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I do hunt deer in NC and the number of mature bucks in the population could be improved, especially on some game lands.
 
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ncnat

Ten Pointer
CRC said:
Good info but would that apply if a limited quota hunt was set up as well limiting the number of bucks also?
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Would that not be another restriction to make the first restriction work, when you don't need the first restriction to start with?
 
nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
I do hunt deer in NC and the number of mature bucks in the population could be improved, especially on some game lands.
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You could also say you hunt elephants here, you just haven't seen one that met your criteria for harvest. It would be the same as saying you are a trophy deer hunter in your bat cave.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
ncnat said:
Would that not be another restriction to make the first restriction work, when you don't need the first restriction to start with?
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South Carolina manages some of their public lands with both quotas and antler restrictions.
 

JoeyK

Twelve Pointer
LOL.....i love these threads.....i have lived and hunted in states with tougher regulations....and in my opinion the success was marginally successful.....i have seen more antlered animals here in NC in any given year than ever in any of the other states.....would a 4 point rule produce bigger deer here....i really am not sure about that but alot of the antlered deer i see are already small basket rack 8's....so i really dont think a 4 point restriction is gonna work here....now some states have a 14" rule....i think if you are to have a restriction THAT is a better choice for more mature deer in NC.....just my opinion though!!
 

TrickyTross

Six Pointer
ARs are not a Taylor made fix all. I'm guessing you missed when Craig said "Before that start that antler restriction mess". He's not a fan of it for our area. Many biologist share the same view. Any change isn't going to be over night.
 
nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
TrickyTross said:
ARs are not a Taylor made fix all. I'm guessing you missed when Craig said "Before that start that antler restriction mess". He's not a fan of it for our area. Many biologist share the same view. Any change isn't going to be over night.
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He brings up AR 3-4 times a year, I am sure he just thought it was an opportune time to try to slide it in again.
 

Fordman1873

Guest
As a primarily a meat hunter, I support this. I would honestly rather kill a yearling doe instead of a buck because the meat is better, however, if I'm gonna kill a buck, its going to be a big one. I passed up a 10 yard shot with a rifle because that which was at the bisuniess end of my 30/30 was just a one-horned spike. However, as a whitetail nut, this irritates me greatly. I's already been stated that "if we kill only 8 pointers, were gonna see a lot of six and seven pionters". furthermore, there's a six pointer on our land who's g2 was longer than my forearm last season (untelling what he's gonna look like this year), and I have one of the horns of a roadkill 8 point that I can fit in the cargo pocket of my B.D.U. pants. Just sayin..... also, if its the last day of the season and I've not killed anything and i see a button buck or a spike, forget trophy bucks, I'm HUNGRY!
 
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BSA7MM

Guest
The problem with that the 4 on one side thing, Means I wouldn't have been able to take the below buck. He is at least 6.5 years old, and I suspect actually older. He was the one of the largest deer I have taken weight wise.

image1.jpgimage2.JPG

Also, he tasted good. I absolutely loved the neck roasts I got from him.
 
Ldsoldier

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
There us go, ample reasons NOT to do antler restrictions. To answer your question CRC, I'd have to look at the actual numbers. Either way it always amazes me how many "small government conservatives" favor the State telling them what size buck they're allowed to harvest…
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Ldsoldier said:
There us go, ample reasons NOT to do antler restrictions. To answer your question CRC, I'd have to look at the actual numbers. Either way it always amazes me how many "small government conservatives" favor the State telling them what size buck they're allowed to harvest…
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In that case why support deer limits or seasons at all?

Its funny that many states in the south have public lands with antler restrictions. Every single one of them except North Carolina.
 

Backwoods Bio

Guest
In order for antler restrictions to work at an optimal level there would have to first be a statewide camera survey administered. The survey would give you the average antler size (number of points) that 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks exhibit in given areas. In this hypothetical case lets say the state wanted to attempt to protect some 2 1/2 year old bucks and all younger bucks. In order for the AR to be effective the NCWRC would have to break the state up into management units via average number of points exhibited by 2 1/2 year old bucks. The camera survey would basically show that 2 1/2 year old bucks have an average of 3 on one side, 4 on one side and in some cases of extremely poor sites possibly less than 3 on one side. With this being the case let me reiterate the need of the camera survey and development of management units.

This is QDM at the most basic level in the fact that it protects your 1 1/2 year old bucks and some of the 2 1/2 year olds. The more that make it to the next age bracket, the more their chance of surviving hunter harvests. We all know that the older a buck gets the more difficult they are to harvest. I understand the worry of "high grading," however that is something that takes place on the genetic level and we all know as well that hunter influence on genetics has been proven by research to be non-influential. Plus, if there is any worry of high grading as you refer to it, then a lower number of buck tags could reduce this being a possibility.

Not everyone wants to shoot big bucks, but for those of us that love the opportunity to hunt mature deer an AR could work when administered correctly.
 
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nccatfisher

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
CRC said:
In that case why support deer limits or seasons at all?

Its funny that many states in the south have public lands with antler restrictions. Every single one of them except North Carolina.
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They wouldn't be necessary if everyone was an avid hunter exactly like you.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Backwoods Bio

This would only be for 1-2 public game lands only.

Not private lands at all.
 
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