Maine politicians to debate bill that would require antler restrictions

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
You are misrepresenting true QDM for antlered deer, sir. It's about age, not number of points on one side or a 12" spread.

TDM can be two different acronyms: trophy deer management, or traditional deer management. The former calls for a buck to doe ratio that is obscenely skewed towards the buck end. The latter is shoot any buck you want period and don't ever shoot does.

How is Trophy management obscenely skewing buck/doe ratios? Deer are born at a 1 to 1 ratio. Never shooting does and only shooting bucks is completely counterproductive to QDM. QDM is about age...of all deer. "Traditional" management practices are the precise reason the hunting quality in NC and other states is less than states with a DNR that understands whitetail herd dynamics. Trophy management isn't all about big antlers. There is a trickle down effect. Allowing deer to grow bigger antlers means allowing them to have more birthdays, which creates a balanced age class in the deer herd. Buck only harvest does the opposite. It creates an obscenely skewed age and sex ratio. You end up with the majority of bucks being 2 years old or less, with lots of really mature old does for every buck. Big old does push young bucks out of their area. When bucks are already outnumbered 10 to 1 and then pushed around by the does constantly, its no wonder mature bucks are like unicorns in a lot of places. Look through the threads on this forum about how many guys had tough seasons, didn't see much. That is not a coincidence. There is a wise saying..."do what you've always done, and you'll get what you've always gotten." If you would take the time to actually read some studies with hard evidence on this subject, you would feel differently. Trophy management doesn't mean you can't shoot what you want, it means using trigger finger management to help the deer herd get back to where nature intended. You can't expect anyone to believe that if you were given the choice of shooting a big 10 point or a cowhorn you would choose to shoot a cowhorn if both were in front of you. Every single state that is known for big bucks also has a very well balanced herd. Trophy management should be called Herd management; big antlers are merely a side effect of a healthy deer herd. FWIW, I don't think APR's alone would make a big difference in NC. It would basically only protect yearlings and lots and lots of basket racked 2 year olds would get killed. It would be of greater benefit to limit total buck harvest, which would cause many hunters to have self imposed APR's...being more selective. I get where you are coming from saying why would anyone want the government to add more regulations on hunting. in general I agree, however...when the hunters of a given state have damaged the quality of the hunting by using "traditional wisdom," the State has an obligation to protect the wildlife. If not for government regulations, we would not have Bison in America anymore, we would have very few elk or turkey. Hunters were not being responsible stewards of the land shooting what they wanted. Right now even...Utah, Colorado, South Dakota, and Wyoming have temporarily banned shed hunting. Not because they want to control what hunters do, but because the shed hunters were pressuring stressed mule deer and elk during a hard winter. Those states have a responsibility to step in and protect the resources when hunters are not doing so. The states that have instituted APRs are doing the same thing. they realized the overall herd health was declining due to harvest practices from hunters, and the APR's are a way to try to improve the problem. Everyone should indeed be allowed to shoot what they want, but not at the cost of lowering the hunting quality for current and future generations. there has to be a limit. B&C entries are more than a list of big deer...it is an indication of the health of the deer herd in a given area. Booner bucks don't show up unless all the ingredients are there, and ingredients that produce really big bucks...also produce more deer in general, which is a good thing.
 

Boojum

Ten Pointer
Booner bucks and money aren't what deer hunting should be all about, IMO. Deer are also not livestock to be bred and managed like cattle for antlers, artificial age structures and buck/doe ratios, they are wild animals.

I would rather see more deer than less deer and bigger antlers, myself. I think deer have managed themselves just fine for hundreds of thousands of years. When people get involved, and think they know better than nature, it is usually never for the better. Trophy hunting has changed the whole dynamic of hunting so that it is all about horns and competition and bragging and jealousy and money. I hunt because I enjoy it, not because I am measuring inches of antler trying to outdo somebody else. We don't need more restrictions mandated by trophy hunters looking for "quality bucks." Any buck is a good buck, and is exactly what nature intended it to be.
 
Last edited:

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
that's why the only outdoor related show I like is that Meateater fellow,,,,,,,shoots dinks and rejoices in it,,,,,,for the hunt and for the meat,,,,,,,
 

Weekender

Twelve Pointer
How is Trophy management obscenely skewing buck/doe ratios? Deer are born at a 1 to 1 ratio. Never shooting does and only shooting bucks is completely counterproductive to QDM.

Because Trophy Deer Management is NOT about balanced ratios at all. It is not QDM. I think you misread or I misstyped. See below:

"Trophy Deer Management (TDM) is the approach where only fully mature bucks, 5½ to 7½ years old, with high scoring antlers are harvested (with the exception of low-scoring middle-aged bucks) and does are aggressively harvested to maintain low deer density and optimum nutrition for the remaining animals. TDM is not practical in much of the United States, and the strategy is negatively viewed by much of the hunting and non-hunting public."

https://www.qdma.com/qdm-vs-trophy-traditional-deer-management/
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
You can literally manage your lease/club just about however you want to.
True. But unless you control A LOT of land, you will be at the mercy of all those around you. Unless they manage similar to you ... you're p!ss!in up a rope.
 

wturkey01

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
badlandbucks, you may want to consider breaking your post up into several paragraphs next time.



..............................................................
he_s_right.jpg
..............................................................
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
True. But unless you control A LOT of land, you will be at the mercy of all those around you. Unless they manage similar to you ... you're p!ss!in up a rope.

So go out and talk to the clubs around you. Toss a pig on the grill and invite them over. Get everybody on the same page. As long as you're not overly extreme you'd be surprised what folks will agree to. The game wardens have enough to do already. We really don't need to add antler scoring to their list of responsibilities.

Badlandbucks, I'm not against QDM. I'm really not. I am against government mandated Trophy management. I'm a big fan of teaching hunters how to manage their deer, and then getting out of their way. There's a lot more variables to be considered than just a buck/doe ratio. There's a lot of variation throughout our state's deer herd. In the eastern part of the state you could just about shoot every doe you see and barely put a dent in the population. Out west I wouldn't recommend shooting does at all. What are the folks in the mountains supposed to shoot if they only get a single buck or can only shoot "mature bucks"? A lot of those poor fellas will be eating tag soup more often than not. We like to over-simplify deer management with simple things like shooting does and APRs. Reality is that it's really not that simple.

I'll be honest with you. While I was in Kentucky the only WMA within a couple hours of me had 15" rule. Between my job and my family I had very little time to hunt. I think I actually got to go hunting maybe 5 or 6 times the entire season. It sucked sitting there watching a 1.5-2.5 year old buck within bow range for 10 minutes trying to figure out if his antlers were "beyond" his ears or not. He eventually caught my scent and took off. I never saw him while I was hunting again. That was at least a 150 lb deer and would've put a lot of meat in my freezer. Sure, all of us like shooting big deer, but that's not the main goal for every hunter. State-mandated trophy management takes that choice away. It's basically the state saying we're to stupid to figure out which deer we should shoot.

Your examples of bison and turkeys are apples compared to the oranges we're talking about. They were actually extirpated from areas. White-tailed deer are in no danger of being extirpated from NC, with or without current management. If anything they've become a pest in parts of the state. That's another issue that complicates this whole matter. How many clubs do you know of sit there and only shoot Trophy bucks, and then the farmer gets pissed off because they're not shooting deer and drops 50 or more out of his soybeans with a depredation permit the following spring/summer? You have that variable, too. This is much more complex than just "shoot more does, don't shoot young bucks".
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
This is much more complex than just "shoot more does, don't shoot young bucks".
t

No its not.

Deer management in NC has been, since Scott Osborne was the deer biologist, shoot does and more does and even more does.

Shoot does and lots of does is the management philosophy of the NCWRC and NC deer hunters. and farmers.

Its just the way it is.

I'd like to see the new deer biologist come up with a deer management plan like what was created for black bear. That would put to rest where the WRC stands on "trophy deer management" and "qdm".
 
Last edited:

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
t

No its not.

Deer management in NC has been, since Scott Osborne was the deer biologist, shoot does and more does and even more does.

Shoot does and lots of does is the management philosophy of the NCWRC and NC deer hunters. and farmers.

Its just the way it is.

I'd like to see the new deer biologist come up with a deer management plan like what was created for black bear. That would put to rest where the WRC stands on "trophy deer management" and "qdm".
The black bear management plan was get more of them. Then it was get numbers to a number that the public could live with. That was what the black bear management plan was condensed. How would that help you with deer? Remember you are a trophy hunter, you have said that numerous times.
 

buckshooter

Old Mossy Horns
wow....reading through all this , I wonder how people are able to really enjoy getting outdoors and just enjoying the sport / the challenges it offers , just those simple aspects of it.....remember people , it isn't antler size , or even quantity that matters here , its supposed to be about getting out and enjoying the sport & the company of others that do as well......way too many people on both sides sides have the "It's better to do it my way that your way" mentality ....geeezzzzz people , get out , hunt for your own personal enjoyment , & stop trying to impose your type of enjoyment onto others.....always keep this at the forefront ( it's all about being safe first , then always having fun ) not about making a harvest........ or it should be , it sure ain't rocket science....
 
Last edited:

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
The bear management plan clearly outlined populations goals and standards for various areas of the state.

Same could be done with a deer management plan.

Generic example: Goal is to increase the number of mature bucks in the herd in this area of the state and reduce the anterless component of the population.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
The bear management plan clearly outlined populations goals and standards for various areas of the state.

Same could be done with a deer management plan.

Generic example: Goal is to increase the number of mature bucks in the herd in this area of the state and reduce the anterless component of the population.
Spin it any way you want it. The plan was all about numbers. Comparing bear management to deer is apples and oranges. But is typical of your thinking.
 

tra_cline

Ten Pointer
Contributor
I have read every comment on this and most all threads of this sort that, I have posted very few times on any of them if truthfully at all. I am in my current state of hunting a watcher and a mature buck killer. I look at deer as shooter or not, I still vividly remember seeing deer as "A DEER" then as "A BUCK" my point being.
This APR argument seams swayed toward the state adding restrictions to public hunting land and improving public trophy deer herd numbers. The seamingly common complaint with those supporting APR is "its to hard for me to kill a big deer" well cry me a freaking river. How is it anyones responsibility to offer you a golden opportunity at a Trophy deer. I have hunted my dang guts out in these mountains and not shot good bucks for years. Others do it with regularity, point being good deer currently exist. I saved and scrounged and moved onto more fruitful hunting grounds. They do exist even in NC currently. If you are wanting others to give up their hunting to better your personal antler goals, YOU PLAIN SUCK! Grow a set, learn to scout (which is a lot of out of the wood time) and hunt, save your money to be better equip to be there when it's right. Rewards aren't meant to be easy to attain and you wanting others to sacrifice to benefit your personal goals shows how pitiful hunters have become. The state of NC has huge amounts of hunting, a large majority of private land is wrapped up or very expensive. Public land quality deer are regularly killed every year. If killing trophy bucks is your goal go where they are, quit expecting the state to grow them where you live.
My second thought on this is comparing deer management - on a small tract of land alone herd improvements are insanely tough as I am finding out, monetarily expensive and time consuming! To ask a state to improve a large public acreage with the sole purpose of growing Trophy deer for hunting is absurd. The habitat improvements needed, management strategies and man power, yearly funding and overall lack of public benefit from a project like this is completely wasteful. With so many hunting options currently available; both in state and out; the public benefit as a whole is minimal.
Lastly who here can tell me what a trophy deer looks like?
Cause a 2.5yr old 15" 4x4 and a 3.5 13" 3x2 are different balls of wax. Neither have reached potential yet the one with more potential is gonna die.... If only shooting a deer deer with 4 on a side trips your trigger you're in SAD shape. Go somewhere see a big deer and then rethink your goals.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I have read every comment on this and most all threads of this sort that, I have posted very few times on any of them if truthfully at all. I am in my current state of hunting a watcher and a mature buck killer. I look at deer as shooter or not, I still vividly remember seeing deer as "A DEER" then as "A BUCK" my point being.
This APR argument seams swayed toward the state adding restrictions to public hunting land and improving public trophy deer herd numbers. The seamingly common complaint with those supporting APR is "its to hard for me to kill a big deer" well cry me a freaking river. How is it anyones responsibility to offer you a golden opportunity at a Trophy deer. I have hunted my dang guts out in these mountains and not shot good bucks for years. Others do it with regularity, point being good deer currently exist. I saved and scrounged and moved onto more fruitful hunting grounds. They do exist even in NC currently. If you are wanting others to give up their hunting to better your personal antler goals, YOU PLAIN SUCK! Grow a set, learn to scout (which is a lot of out of the wood time) and hunt, save your money to be better equip to be there when it's right. Rewards aren't meant to be easy to attain and you wanting others to sacrifice to benefit your personal goals shows how pitiful hunters have become. The state of NC has huge amounts of hunting, a large majority of private land is wrapped up or very expensive. Public land quality deer are regularly killed every year. If killing trophy bucks is your goal go where they are, quit expecting the state to grow them where you live.
My second thought on this is comparing deer management - on a small tract of land alone herd improvements are insanely tough as I am finding out, monetarily expensive and time consuming! To ask a state to improve a large public acreage with the sole purpose of growing Trophy deer for hunting is absurd. The habitat improvements needed, management strategies and man power, yearly funding and overall lack of public benefit from a project like this is completely wasteful. With so many hunting options currently available; both in state and out; the public benefit as a whole is minimal.
Lastly who here can tell me what a trophy deer looks like?
Cause a 2.5yr old 15" 4x4 and a 3.5 13" 3x2 are different balls of wax. Neither have reached potential yet the one with more potential is gonna die.... If only shooting a deer deer with 4 on a side trips your trigger you're in SAD shape. Go somewhere see a big deer and then rethink your goals.
That is about as plain as you can put it.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
I have read every comment on this and most all threads of this sort that, I have posted very few times on any of them if truthfully at all. I am in my current state of hunting a watcher and a mature buck killer. I look at deer as shooter or not, I still vividly remember seeing deer as "A DEER" then as "A BUCK" my point being.
This APR argument seams swayed toward the state adding restrictions to public hunting land and improving public trophy deer herd numbers. The seamingly common complaint with those supporting APR is "its to hard for me to kill a big deer" well cry me a freaking river. How is it anyones responsibility to offer you a golden opportunity at a Trophy deer. I have hunted my dang guts out in these mountains and not shot good bucks for years. Others do it with regularity, point being good deer currently exist. I saved and scrounged and moved onto more fruitful hunting grounds. They do exist even in NC currently. If you are wanting others to give up their hunting to better your personal antler goals, YOU PLAIN SUCK! Grow a set, learn to scout (which is a lot of out of the wood time) and hunt, save your money to be better equip to be there when it's right. Rewards aren't meant to be easy to attain and you wanting others to sacrifice to benefit your personal goals shows how pitiful hunters have become. The state of NC has huge amounts of hunting, a large majority of private land is wrapped up or very expensive. Public land quality deer are regularly killed every year. If killing trophy bucks is your goal go where they are, quit expecting the state to grow them where you live.
My second thought on this is comparing deer management - on a small tract of land alone herd improvements are insanely tough as I am finding out, monetarily expensive and time consuming! To ask a state to improve a large public acreage with the sole purpose of growing Trophy deer for hunting is absurd. The habitat improvements needed, management strategies and man power, yearly funding and overall lack of public benefit from a project like this is completely wasteful. With so many hunting options currently available; both in state and out; the public benefit as a whole is minimal.
Lastly who here can tell me what a trophy deer looks like?
Cause a 2.5yr old 15" 4x4 and a 3.5 13" 3x2 are different balls of wax. Neither have reached potential yet the one with more potential is gonna die.... If only shooting a deer deer with 4 on a side trips your trigger you're in SAD shape. Go somewhere see a big deer and then rethink your goals.

This is exactly why I moved to Iowa
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
To ask a state to improve a large public acreage with the sole purpose of growing Trophy deer for hunting is absurd.

So absurd that states like Georgia, Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Florida, South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee and Mississippi successfully do it?
 

tra_cline

Ten Pointer
Contributor
Which habitat in each of those states are you personally familiar with? What improvement was made? Educate me please, I've personally hunted 8 of the 9 states you've listed and on a whole 3 of those have consistently better Hunting than NC offers. How are you rating success? How many of these states have you hunted? Where have you hunted in NC? What is your base line for Trophy Hunting, what's your personal best deer?
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
So go out and talk to the clubs around you. Toss a pig on the grill and invite them over. Get everybody on the same page. As long as you're not overly extreme you'd be surprised what folks will agree to. The game wardens have enough to do already. We really don't need to add antler scoring to their list of responsibilities.
I was just stating a fact from my experience.

A lot of folks around me don't hunt. A lot of the ones who do ARE pretty much on the same page as I am. The few that aren't are not going to change. One is a "brown, it's down" family. Another is a small group who lease a small piece of land. They're also "brown, it's down", and they even invite friends to do the same. They also tend to dump carcasses. Then there is the ever-present local poaching problem.

Your suggestion is a good one. But it doesn't always work. I don't even know if it "mostly" works ... but it IS worth a try.

And what I said before is true.
 

Weekender

Twelve Pointer
Let's not kid around: a couple families on a small tract out to meet their limit can negatively impact every other tract around them. Not only would QDM be impossible, but seeing deer would be challenging for someone not even qdm minded.

If each hunter thought in terms of not killing too many deer for the size of the land they hunt, all types of hunters would benefit. Deer would benefit. I know some will hate me for saying this but if the limit is four bucks, that doesn't mean its good to kill four on the same tract of land under 300 acres. I can't see how that's good for the deer herd or your neighbor who hunts. IMO.
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
Exactly right, Weekender. in my case, one or two families and a club that invites others is a deadly combination. Add poachers, and you can forget it.
 
Last edited:

Boojum

Ten Pointer
Let's not kid around: a couple families on a small tract out to meet their limit can negatively impact every other tract around them. Not only would QDM be impossible, but seeing deer would be challenging for someone not even qdm minded.

If each hunter thought in terms of not killing too many deer for the size of the land they hunt, all types of hunters would benefit. Deer would benefit. I know some will hate me for saying this but if the limit is four bucks, that doesn't mean its good to kill four on the same tract of land under 300 acres. I can't see how that's good for the deer herd or your neighbor who hunts. IMO.
And killing four bucks on a tract is not going to hurt nearly as much as killing four does on the same tract. Without does, there is no deer herd.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
Let's not kid around: a couple families on a small tract out to meet their limit can negatively impact every other tract around them. Not only would QDM be impossible, but seeing deer would be challenging for someone not even qdm minded.

If each hunter thought in terms of not killing too many deer for the size of the land they hunt, all types of hunters would benefit. Deer would benefit. I know some will hate me for saying this but if the limit is four bucks, that doesn't mean its good to kill four on the same tract of land under 300 acres. I can't see how that's good for the deer herd or your neighbor who hunts. IMO.

A couple of families can only do so much damage unless they're poaching, then all bets are off and the "rules" don't matter anyway. As far as "not killing too many deer for the size of the land they hunt...", I don't disagree. I just don't believe the state should be mandating that type of management. I'm all for somebody electing to instill limits on themselves. That's a good thing. I fully believe in actually managing the land you hunt. Best thing you can do is constantly monitor what your herd is doing and set your harvest goals based on that data. We currently have the freedom to do that. You can kill more does or less. Shoot young bucks or old. Shoot lots or little. You have that ability. The state can't change it's policy as easily or as quickly as a club can. It literally takes 2 years to pass a new regulation or repeal an old one. The legislature works slightly faster, sometimes. Also remember that not every deer your neighbor kills was necessarily on your property at some point.
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
A couple of families can only do so much damage unless they're poaching, then all bets are off and the "rules" don't matter anyway.
A couple families can kill A LOT of deer legally. If the family has a lot of hunters and/or they buy extra tags, they don't have to poach to put a big hurt on the local population, believe me The same for a club that invites friends. Six deer per, plus extra doe tags can add up to a heck of a lot of deer.

I ate my tags this year, like I did 2 years ago. Like a lot of other places, the deer population took a bad hit recently. All I was seeing all season long were 2 young does, 3 fawns, and 2 young bucks. Guess what? By the end of the season all I was seeing were the 3 fawns. And I was relieved that at least they let those three live (assuming they were seeing them -- and I'm not at all sure of that).

The rest of your quote, I agree with.

And I'm not trying to make a case for more regulation. I was just stating a fact that some folks seem to not want to believe. What one does on their land sure as heck CAN and DOES affect other folks' hunting, depending on how "drastic" their behavior. No, shooting a young buck or doe or fawn here or there is probably not going to amount to anything. The problem is, like a lot of things, some folks just seem to have to take things to the extreme.
 

tra_cline

Ten Pointer
Contributor
but what about the squirrels????

TSM is where it's at,,,,,,,,,,

This is my round about point, as much I Like deer hunting and big bucks - this is singularly ruining hunting as a whole.
I'm sure the comment of "well it just makes better habitat for everything else too" UH except the squirrel, coon, grouse, and any other hunter that wants to step into the OH SO HOLY DEER SANCTUARY!!
OH dear lord don't spook them precious big bucks! They'll leave and never to return! Get A freakin life! if you can't go kill a quality deer in todays hunting world you need to re-commit or take up golf!!!
How much more science and work needs to be laid out to know what it takes to grow and kill deer? If you live in a sucky area fill your gas tank up and drive it empty, open the door and start scouting!!
And YES it truly is that damn easy!!!!
 
Top